Discussion in 'Never Ending Stories' started by das, Jul 15, 2005.
Is it bad that I'm just glad the Loons aren't in last?
Wheelers #2! That honestly surprises me.
Anytime someone suggests a WWI/WWII commander NES, someone should immediately quote that person and search and replace all instances of either term with "Gundam's One Year War," "One Year War," or "OYW" for brevity. Infinitely superior fit for the NESing mentality. See below for examples:
This post will go unnoticed in its time, but future generations will see its wisdom.
Since you're not in any NESes, think that almost everyone here deserves to be purged, and aren't being productive or helpful whatsoever, why are you still posting here?
Don't know what you're talking about, you're (all) free to do whatever and I'm not impinging upon that or even judging it. I just now made a productive and helpful suggestion to assist in doing it, in fact? Where is my post saying I hope you're all liquidated by the thoughtpolice?
Maybe you're the judgmental and prejudiced one in this interaction? Why do you care so much? Why are you posting?
Actually, no, I'm going to give this a second pass, because your arrogance is truly astonishing, SouthernKing, and frankly unacceptable in a thread whose specific purpose is NES Ideas.
First of all: check your privilege, you cisparticipatory elitist.
The last three games I joined (bomb's, Azale's, and Crezth's) were all DOA or never even had the decency to arrive, through no lack of effort on my part. I was a cheerleader and enforcer for each of them. I provided demonstrable quality content for each. I was disappointed with each in turn precisely because I had hoped they would be fun and long-lived.
My opinions are no less legitimate than yours simply because I have the misfortune of finding concepts interesting that have a poor record of success. That I am currently unengaged does not deligitimize my observations prima facie, especially when I am in such a position as a form of documented political protest against the gross abuses of power committed by forum administration.
In fact, if you really want to go there, NESing failed me, not vice versa. So back up and leave your smug condescension at the door.
While it is true that I have had, do have, and likely will have high quality standards, I have gone out of my way to by and large pursue a live-and-let-live philosophy. Hyperbolic commentary aside (which I challenge you to find much of, even on #nes given I have been there for approximately 8 minutes in the past two months), I haven't lifted a finger against any game thread to which I was not a party in some time, no matter my opinions on its content. I am perfectly fine with you doing whatever, and I will personally credit Terrance888 with helping me understand that people should be allowed to pursue a hobby as they see fit.
So I defy you to back up this claim with anything in the form of solid, recent evidence, and no, don't you dare point at my signature, that was adopted specifically to mock Off Topic.
Gundam, in particular the UC series, and more specifically the One Year War, is essentially WWII In Space, only with much more eccentric and colorful personalities and with far stranger outcomes (both of which befit the kind of characters NESers have historically liked to imagine) while still maintaining many of the same themes and motifs in a convenient (and arguably serious) framing narrative. I do not think that pointing toward something that has a similar feel but less historical baggage isn't "productive or helpful whatsoever" and frankly I challenge you to demonstrate that this suggestion is in fact anything other than productive.
Who are you to question where I do and don't post? Who appointed you the gatekeeper? What gives you the authority to question me? Who died and made you King?
You know, this kind of slanderous and vile ad hominem you're engaging in is, ironically, exactly the same kind that you appear to personally dislike me for, yet you don't seem to see any irony in it at all. Well, allow me to give you a wake-up call: you're a jerk too.
I have been a controversial figure in this community. I have been aggressive, and abrasive, yes. But I make one innocuous suggestion and you're all up in my grill waving your Active Player wang all over the place, defecating and urinating as if to mark your territory and score points with the women. Well, there aren't any women here, son, and while your little alpha dog display is cute, you should save it for wherever it is that you encounter them. You're not entitled to judge me.
So, to summarize, unless you have a critique of my suggestion: go away.
I can't speak for bombshoo's because I don't remember what happened there, but your passive-aggressive temper-tantrums in the other threads certainly weren't cheerleading. I do recognize that your quality control standards may be high, and that you have a right to speak, but that still doesn't give you an excuse for your behavior. And if NESing truly failed you, then as I pointed out, why are you still posting here?
I also find you calling me an elitist rather ironic, but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
I distinctly remember you posting in various CI-related threads unjustifiably, unhelpfully, and abrasively criticizing other players despite you not ever participating in that NES.
Unlike what I've seen and heard of you, I am not and have never tried to be an alpha male here or anywhere else, nor do I actually want to. Am I being judgmental? Maybe. But I'm making that post since I felt the need that to finally call you out. In the 2.5 years I've been here, I can't remember you making one helpful comment without being abrasive about it or trying to display your superiority over everyone else; your own statements regarding the "NESing mentality" speak for this. And, (the irony in your analogy aside) I'm not sure what the hell "picking up women" has anything to do with the topic, unless you're trying to point out my age.
In any case, I'm going to drop this line of conversation and forget it ever happened, because I don't want to start a flame war. Even though you're unlikely to listen, I highly encourage you to do the same.
Pointing at literally the last day in a multi-month situation certainly is a very objective way of looking at the entire process. You're to be congratulated on your thoroughness in investigating these affairs.
What behavior? I made a suggestion. Explain to me how it was out of line, inappropriate, or non-constructive. I have already called upon you to do so, and you have yet to oblige me. Stop avoiding the point.
And yet you're still questioning my right to speak. I don't have to explain myself to you.
Are you denying that your behavior is, in fact, elitist?
I only ever posted in the background thread, and only to offer a particular critique of Russian industrialization in the context of a serf economy, in an ongoing discussion of the same, and without any objection from any other posters present at the time. If you want to characterize that as "unjustifiable," "unhelpful," and "abrasive," then the onus is on you to produce evidence to that effect. Until such time you're engaging in unsubstantiated character assassination.
e: I'll give you these two though if you don't think that the commentary was warranted by the content then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
I see a pattern of faulty memory at work. You've never made your dislike for me particularly opaque.
I would suggest this has something to do with either a lack of attention or a deliberate desire to see only what one wants to see, but I've no doubt this is just another "display of my superiority." If you really want me to find examples for you I can do that, but I want a sincere commitment to the need for me to do so before undertaking the effort.
e: For the record, this was my last post in a game thread I was not participating in (over two months ago). Truly, it is the smuggest.
Anyway, I don't think there's much dispute that the NESing forum as an aggregate of largely 16-24 males, largely white, largely European or American, has a certain forum culture and outlook as a whole, and engages with things in a certain way, both at present and in the past, that could be shorthanded as "the NESing mentality," and if you truly find that shorthand offensive then I'm sorry, I will return to using the longhand for your mollification.
Usually when a man puffs up his chest and puts on a show he's doing it either to impress his buddies or to impress whatever gender he's attracted to. I did make a rather crass assumption in my remarks as written. Regardless, it was to inform you you certainly weren't doing the latter. But maybe you still think you're doing the former. It's unclear.
I continue to wait for an explanation as to how my remark was not constructive. If you're not willing to provide it, so be it.
Moderator Action: This is the kind of posting that gets us all in trouble. it is very easy to "get on about" peoples pasts and take them to task for some perceived non contribution. Everyone here has issues and quirks someone doesn't like. Get over it.
SK, your response to Sym D's perfectly fine post was uncalled for and escalated a normal conversation into what followed. Please take your mean-spirited talk to chat or IM or anywhere else but CFC. NESers are sufficiently flawed that responses to personal attacks will come, posts will get reported, I or another will show up, and type in red text. It gets unpleasant for all concerned. Please end this conversation without any followup response. End it now. Thanks.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Suppose rapid, sustained advancement in space access to the point where Turkey could plausibly be running missions most of the time on its own. Who else would have space capability?
Europe (who could do it on their own, though? Germany, UK, France, ... Italy? Netherlands? Spain?)
Not some of the above? More that I missed?
You could probably condense European space activity together under the ESA/Sci-Fi equivelent. Might make whatever you're planning a bit more feasible.
Edit: As to other countries; maybe Israel? They currently have a surprisingly large space program, considering their size.
A lot of countries, such as Turkey, have a satellite program. The reason is because unmanned space missions, like what basically everyone is doing now, are a lot cheaper. If you're referring to manned space missions, instead of probes, then the cost is going to have to drop substantially, to the point where you'll see Turkey in the same league as private companies.
If you wanted to go by GDP with Turkey being the absolute lowest level, everybody above Turkey on the list would be able to afford it. That's almost everyone you have listed, plus extras. A EU space agency is probably a good idea, that would reduce the number of people to ~10 agencies.
Ruleset for SilliNES4: Knights Fall
Coming Soon To A Forum Near You.
I playtested this with Pen and Paper and it's a solid system.
Biggest question now is: Hex or Square grid?
+1 vote hex grid.
Can't think of why I ignored Israel.
In addition to what other people have said, a question you have to ask is why, just because it was possible to do alone, anyone actually would, even if the price had gone down significantly. Countries routinely partner for things like small arms up through vehicles from tanks to helicopters to aircraft to ships, even when it's possible for them to develop them solo. Considering a major component of the economic attractiveness of development is exporting (and for the importer, skipping overhead R&D and the costs of duplicated efforts), and for joint development defraying costs or capitalizing on extant specializations, setting the bar at just "Who could afford it?" sets up a really skewed perspective on how things would actually be approached.
Mercantilism is dead, and although "strategic industries" aren't, globalization's impact is extremely heavy even on fields like aerospace directly or peripherally related to core national interests.
Do note I said "capable", with no intent to imply needless expenses. I suppose "resources on par with those available to the Republic of Turkey a couple of decades hence are sufficient" may have been a more accurate phrasing.
Turkey represented for me the opening of space to a much, much wider group of states than "Europe, North America, China, Japan, and maybe India". Given a concerted effort, anyhow.
That itself remains something of a strange benchmark depending on what you mean by "concerted effort," because the resources of Turkey today are sufficient to go to the Moon within a decade as America did by any reasonable stretch of the imagination.
The Apollo Program was estimated by NASA in 2009 to have cost $170 billion in 2005 dollars, over about 10 years. Let's say it was $17 billion per year, or roughly NASA's current annual budget ($17.8 billion). The US spends about 0.1% of GDP on NASA today. NATO demands its members allocate 2% of GDP to defense though few do; suppose that's indicative of a serious commitment to space. (NASA's highest budget year at the time was 1966, with $5.9 billion, vs. a nominal US GDP of $787 billion, or ~0.74% of GDP, but let's assume Turkey is very serious.) 2% of Turkey's annual GDP ($787 billion) is $15.7 billion, which is pretty close to what NASA ballparks Apollo as having cost. NASA was pioneering the technology at the time, and in many ways it'd be cheaper now. Alternately, Turkey could more or less replicate NASA's current efforts for 2% of GDP, ignoring existing infrastructure and sunk costs (which you can't ignore, but for the sake of argument we will.)
So as of today Turkey could, with a relatively reasonable level of its budget and a concerted effort, be on the Moon in 10 years, and so could every country richer than it. In a few decades, it will probably take significantly less money as a percent of GDP, both due to technological advances and economic progress.
By this metric, Turkey already could run missions most of the time on its own if it wanted to (given they'd almost certainly be smaller in scope than NASA's and take far less than the above postulated 2% of GDP). It clearly doesn't care. The problem really isn't money or resources, even today. It's 1. the plethora of "better" things to spend money on (either based on return or real or perceived need), 2. the lack of any immediate return on investment (basically zero, and with rare exception [certain rare earths and helium-3] likely to continue to remain zero), and 3. that these numbers don't exist in a vacuum and it'd be vastly cheaper to piggyback on market leaders' efforts (NASA, ESA, JAXA, etc.) than reproduce them.
"Cheap" access to space for the top 25 or so nations by GDP, relative to their budgets, is already a thing today, it's just there's essentially nothing to be gained from it. Even if it becomes significantly cheaper, the questions are still "Why?" and "Why not go with an existing provider?" which is what I was getting at.
e: Derped the US historical GDP link, fixed it.
Ah. Thanks for your insight.
1: I'm gonna kick you. You dropped SilliNES 3, which had all the look of being awesome, and you are soon doing this?
2: Go for the Hex grid. It is far more strategical.
3: No Air troops?
Separate names with a comma.