Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
New NESes, ideas, development, etc
- Thread starter das
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foolish icarus
Shipwreck
How is quality weighted? The product of quantity and quality seems (by eyeing it) to be greatest at 'untrained'--does this imply 'untrained' is the most efficient use of resources (if quantity and quality in your function are indeed generally useful on a one to one basis...)?
Perhaps a little more bang for one's buck than is shown could be gotten somewhere in the area of 'disciplined' or thereabouts.
What method did you use to match quality descriptors to their numerical location?
What's the function's formula?
Perhaps a little more bang for one's buck than is shown could be gotten somewhere in the area of 'disciplined' or thereabouts.
What method did you use to match quality descriptors to their numerical location?
What's the function's formula?
Mauritania
Warlord
So 7 drilled infantry are equally matched by a single Elite. The most cost effective unit is the untrained infantry as you can score 128 soldiers for every one elite and 21 untrained soldiers are an easy match for a single elite.
The classes themselves equate to half the quantity of the proceeding class.
Both the modifiers are weighted where the quality and quantity of a Green soldier=1.0
I've tried working out the formula but it involves a trigonometric gradient so I gave up.
The classes themselves equate to half the quantity of the proceeding class.
Both the modifiers are weighted where the quality and quantity of a Green soldier=1.0
I've tried working out the formula but it involves a trigonometric gradient so I gave up.
carmen510
Deity
That's some nice deduction there Symph. How long did it take you?
Interesting graph. My only question is whether or not you can have veteran troops who have never actually fought. But its a quibble. I will write up what I did in BirdNES 2 in order to deal with this very question and post it later.
Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
Kozmos
Jew Detective
So 532 Elites are equal to 9576 greenhorns? Me likes.
Symphony D.
Deity
Basically. That assumes of course that all 532 Veterans make it through the combat experiences necessary to gain the ranks to become Elite, but if they did, that would be a true statement.
Conceptually I think you are correct, but the relative value of one level to another is up for grabs. Finding RL examples might help.
300 Spartans vs Persian regulars?
Hannibal's veterans verus Roman legions?
Rommel's Afrika Corps versus the British?
Davout's French at Auerstadt versus the Prussians?
Roark's Drift?
300 Spartans vs Persian regulars?
Hannibal's veterans verus Roman legions?
Rommel's Afrika Corps versus the British?
Davout's French at Auerstadt versus the Prussians?
Roark's Drift?
Symphony D.
Deity
I'll say flat out that I think it's impossible to calibrate a chart that works for all time periods and that I also think doing so is a waste of time. A distinctly modern mindset was used for this and I'll make no bones about it.
I also don't see much utility in using real incidents to gauge the numbers because the number of factors that goes into distinct engagements is enormous, and isolating it down to the two factors here while throwing out morale, tactics, weather, terrain, supplies, weapons, and so on or finding some way to condense those down under Troop Quality (which is vis-a-vis Training, not Equipment or Morale) and Troop Quantity (substantially easier to account for, admittedly) would be extremely difficult to do for a single example.
Doing that for multiple examples, of a diversity large enough to gain the necessary vantage point (and small enough in time-scale to mean much) seems like excessive work for little benefit. Short of doing extensive research, no useful references exist, and the matter seems to me best approached through logic, rather than historical example.
dldnjstjr
The Shrubber
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2006
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- 1,681
Frederick Lanchester introduced his quantitative firepower analysis with his equation of:
Aq(Ao^2 - At^2) = Bq(Bo^2 - Bt^2)
Nq = Qualitative (Relative)
No = Initial Quantitative
Nt = Quantitative at Particular Time (Turn, in this case)
You can probably use Lanchester's quantitative firepower analysis equation for battle outcomes more easily.
Aq(Ao^2 - At^2) = Bq(Bo^2 - Bt^2)
Nq = Qualitative (Relative)
No = Initial Quantitative
Nt = Quantitative at Particular Time (Turn, in this case)
You can probably use Lanchester's quantitative firepower analysis equation for battle outcomes more easily.
Originally from While we Wait...
It's at the same scale as the normal NES world map. The northern areas are frigid, while the southernmost parts are mediterranean in temperature.
It's the map for the simple NES idea I had. When Abaddon asked Luckymoose about making a Steampunk NES, he was apparently inspired into a NESing frenzy. Upon talking to me, it became understood that Lucky didn't know much about the Steampunk theme. I offered to make a map for him and help him with modding.
Later on, he changed his mind, and I continued my work and finished the map. Essentially, it is a Eurasia-clone compacted. I have used the standard colour schemes for many nations, so there are Scandinavianesque nations in the north, and Arab-ish civilization in the south, Oriental in the East, European in the Center-west... and so on. I'm still not sure whether I should give the nations their OTL names, or ones slightly changed, like in Warhammer. I'm leaning towards the latter, though I'm open to suggestions.
The idea is that the NES would be a story-based NES, with a minimal amount of stats. People would play as (to use a term from Girl Genius) Sparks, or people with great skill with technology. They will act through stories, short and simple or long, descriptive and elabourate, whatever you want! I will make short, quick updates saying what happens, and update the map to show cities, borders, bases, and what have you.
Build a mountaintop fortress defended by fiendish traps and mechanical goons, explore the world by zeppelin, carve out a small kingdom of your own, or seek to take the world in a storm of steam and technology!
That's the idea of this game. Thoughts, constructive or (if you insist) destructive are welcome. Please say if you'd be willing to join.
Yes, I'm aware about the unrealism of the Steampunk theme.
But it's fun.
It's at the same scale as the normal NES world map. The northern areas are frigid, while the southernmost parts are mediterranean in temperature.
It's the map for the simple NES idea I had. When Abaddon asked Luckymoose about making a Steampunk NES, he was apparently inspired into a NESing frenzy. Upon talking to me, it became understood that Lucky didn't know much about the Steampunk theme. I offered to make a map for him and help him with modding.
Later on, he changed his mind, and I continued my work and finished the map. Essentially, it is a Eurasia-clone compacted. I have used the standard colour schemes for many nations, so there are Scandinavianesque nations in the north, and Arab-ish civilization in the south, Oriental in the East, European in the Center-west... and so on. I'm still not sure whether I should give the nations their OTL names, or ones slightly changed, like in Warhammer. I'm leaning towards the latter, though I'm open to suggestions.
The idea is that the NES would be a story-based NES, with a minimal amount of stats. People would play as (to use a term from Girl Genius) Sparks, or people with great skill with technology. They will act through stories, short and simple or long, descriptive and elabourate, whatever you want! I will make short, quick updates saying what happens, and update the map to show cities, borders, bases, and what have you.
Build a mountaintop fortress defended by fiendish traps and mechanical goons, explore the world by zeppelin, carve out a small kingdom of your own, or seek to take the world in a storm of steam and technology!
That's the idea of this game. Thoughts, constructive or (if you insist) destructive are welcome. Please say if you'd be willing to join.
Yes, I'm aware about the unrealism of the Steampunk theme.
But it's fun.
Symphony D.
Deity
I don't see anything wrong with it, but I'm curious as to why the given firepower of any two forces, A and B, should be equal. Unless I'm misreading it and A and B stand for something else.
foolish icarus
Shipwreck
Looks like India and Persia got shorted 
What is Magnatae meant to represent?
What is Magnatae meant to represent?
dldnjstjr
The Shrubber
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2006
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- 1,681
A and B are just variables to note two different forces. So, let's say there are 700 (3), given as A, fighting 800 (2), given as A, then you plug in the values so that:
3(490000 - At^2) = 2(640000 - Bt^2)
Then, let's say, 60 died from the A team, then:
3(490000 - 409600) = 2(640000 - Bt^2)
Then do the math to find the remaining forces of B, which will come out to: 720.69, which you can round up to 721, in which case 79 died on B team.
3(490000 - At^2) = 2(640000 - Bt^2)
Then, let's say, 60 died from the A team, then:
3(490000 - 409600) = 2(640000 - Bt^2)
Then do the math to find the remaining forces of B, which will come out to: 720.69, which you can round up to 721, in which case 79 died on B team.
Symphony D.
Deity
That makes much more sense. Thanks. Have any references to how Lanchester came up with the formula? It'd be useful to understand his logic beyond just the final product, I think.
dldnjstjr
The Shrubber
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2006
- Messages
- 1,681
In simplest form, if the attrition fate of force A is proportionate to the remaining strength of B and vice versa, then there are attrition equations:
dA/dt = -B and dB/dt = -A
omitting for clarity the killing rate parameteres for both sides, so that in these equations the fighting effectiveness of individuals on both sides is the same. The solution to these coupled equation is:
Ao^2 - At^2 = Bo^2 - Bt^2
where Ao and Bo are the initial force strengths and At and Bt are strengths later. *Then, as the qualitative instances are taken into account for the battle, then there must be a coefficient to reconstruct the proportion of their fighting effectivenesses.
*Note: Lanchester didn't include the qualitative instances, I revised his original with it so that: Aq(Ao^2 - At^2) = Bq(Bo^2 - Bt^2).
dA/dt = -B and dB/dt = -A
omitting for clarity the killing rate parameteres for both sides, so that in these equations the fighting effectiveness of individuals on both sides is the same. The solution to these coupled equation is:
Ao^2 - At^2 = Bo^2 - Bt^2
where Ao and Bo are the initial force strengths and At and Bt are strengths later. *Then, as the qualitative instances are taken into account for the battle, then there must be a coefficient to reconstruct the proportion of their fighting effectivenesses.
*Note: Lanchester didn't include the qualitative instances, I revised his original with it so that: Aq(Ao^2 - At^2) = Bq(Bo^2 - Bt^2).
Flavius Aetius
Ruler Of Liguria
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2007
- Messages
- 774
I'm going to start an "The Years Of Rice And Salt" NES, and I need advice for the map: I completly eliminated European nation, transformed the Golden Horde in a group aof minor Khanates, and I leave some "Survival Zone" in Europe.
But I'm not sure about the place of various "Survival Zone", so I need advice.
Don't ask me "What nation is it?" because I don't know; Only NK know because it's his map, but he doesn't give me the names yet.
But I'm not sure about the place of various "Survival Zone", so I need advice.
Don't ask me "What nation is it?" because I don't know; Only NK know because it's his map, but he doesn't give me the names yet.
Flavius Aetius
Ruler Of Liguria
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2007
- Messages
- 774
No one has advices?
