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New Official Version - June 19th (6-19)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Jun 19, 2020.

  1. Recursive

    Recursive Covets Lands That You Currently Own Moderator

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  2. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    I managed a turn 325 CV on Emperor as Arabia. Ended with 5 cities, 77 techs, 32 wonders. Played continents on Communitas and had a continent mostly to myself, with my neighbor from a neighboring continent dropping one city on my continent, but mountains prevented any war. No one declared war on me the whole game. My neighbor the Maya kept up in science until the end and went Trad / Statecraft / Rationalism but couldn't build some wonders because of policies. I got most of the Renaissance wonders and everything from Industrial onward. I did restart the game until I got a desert marble start, which let me get Stonehenge, Masoleum, Petra, Great Library, Hanging Gardens, Oracle, etc. Religion was Divine Inheritance / Mandirs / Diligence/ Symbolism / To the Glory of God (I reformed late). I was looking for an inland desert start - I got lucky by getting the marble, I didn't initially see it when I decided to move.

    I paid a bribe to everyone to keep them friends and only took one artifact from their territories, even building landmarks for some of my neighbors. It wasn't a complete runaway game - the Maya were at 72 techs when I finished and got the Apollo Program one turn after I did. Divine Inheritance and my tech lead let me win all of the world projects - I was in a permanent golden age from sometime in Medieval onward.

    I only ended up using 2 musicians on any of the AIs. I passed International Games at the end but my tourism was already starting to boom with CNN tower.

    This game wouldn't be possible at a higher difficulty. I think I'd rather be Brazil for CV at higher difficulty, given the late game strength of Brazil and the difficulty getting wonders.

    There was a change sometime in the last yearish that moved the tourism on completing trade route from Custom Houses to Zoos. I'd suggest reverting that if we wanted to make CV a little easier. Right now, CV are for Arabia and Brazil. Everyone else, its probably not even worth trying.

    Arabia Turn 325 CV victory.png
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
  3. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper King

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    I'm not sure if there is some thing wrong on my end or it's just terrible streak of bad luck but really cannot manage happiness at all this version, staying above 50% with 6 or 7 progress cities is just not doable at all for me even tho i managed to do well with even more cities on previous versions.
    Cities start revolting and barbs spawning continuosly starting in the classical era even without going to war no matter how well-developed my cities are or how many luxuries i import.
    Is there someone else experiencing this or it's just me?
     
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  4. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    No, at least not in the classical era. Something is way off in your games. What are the biggest sources of unhappiness in your empire?
     
  5. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    I tried a 7 city Progress game on Deity and got this problem.

    Progress has a happiness trap in that its happiness policy doesn't come online until a city has 10 population. Sure, there's needs reduction, but its not actual happiness. If the world median gets too high, your cities are going to be unhappy... and then never grow to 10 population. So your cities will stay unhappy and you'll have revolts. It might be manageable on Pangea where you can trade for 7 luxuries from the AIs. On continents, its incredibly difficult. It can be managed with extra sources of happiness but otherwise, Progress is best not going too wide until cities are at 10 population.

    Sometimes, you can avoid this problem on lower difficulties as Progress when the world median doesn't get away from you. But if it does, you're just in an unhappiness spiral and pretty much out of the game.
     
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    This one is going to be a long one, so I'm using spoilers to break it up. My quest for CV continues!

    Emperor Standard on Communitas_79 with Arabia. SV in Turn 420.

    Basic Game Notes
    Spoiler :

    This was not the most typical Tradition CV play. I had some gorgeous land to start with, but I got pinned in on all 3 sides by Polynesia, England, and Iroquois. So the majority of my game until Renaissance was war. My goal was to capture enough cities to get to 5 and then carve out enough border space to secure my territory for the rest of the game. I vassaled Polynesia, had a loooong slog with Iroquois but finally took the key city I needed, and then razed one of Englands city to carve out space. With that my warring days were put behind me. I was able to citadel up and fortify my lines, and therefore could get back to the actual task at hand.

    upload_2020-7-14_14-0-29.png

    On another weird turn, I went Industry this game. With all of my warring I was behind in infrastructure compared to where I normally was, and I keep meaning to give Industry a fair shake, so I gave it go. I figured there would be no better time to see if the raw Industrial pick up could get me back in a good place.

    One note is how "slow" this game was.... finishing SV a good 45 or so turns after my last few runs. I think this was a combination of a slow science world (not a single AI took rationalism this game, which is very unusual). You'll also notice there are no real big science civs in this game, no Maya, no Korea, etc. So because I also didn't take rationalism, and didn't have any strong science AIs to spy off of....science in general was just low. But that is telling that even with slow science I still managed a SV before a CV.

    Ultimately the Mongols of all people was the culture leader. Of course he didn't want to open border. Of course he went order instead of freedom. Of course he got sanctioned so I couldn't trade with him late game. My one CV boon this game was I didn't get travel banned, which was a pretty damn solid benefit.


    The Late Musician Strategy
    Spoiler :

    So I attempted the strategy I have talked about recently, holding off on Great Musicians until the very end of the game (after Internet). I unfortunately did accidentally get 2 GMs early because of Arabia's UA, but otherwise I activated the plan. I did managed to get to Influential with them, but a few turns after the SV. Here is the breakdown of how it went:

    Turn 394 - Internet
    Turn 395 - GM (Faith) - 13,396 Tourism
    Turn 398 - GM (Capital) - 17,540 Tourism
    Turn 401 - GM (Faith) - 20,049 Tourism
    Turn 406 - GM (Faith) - 23,090 Tourism
    Turn 409 - GM (Capital) - 24,579 Tourism
    Turn 409 - GM (International Games) - 25,294 Tourism
    Turn 420 - SV
    Turn 421 - GM (Faith) - 34,429 Tourism

    2 early GMs from accidental UA usage: 14,442

    Total Tourism to Mongols: 387,859
    % Tourism from GM bombs (44.5%)

    So honestly, I wasn't that impressed by the strategy. As you can see, based on this SV (which was a slow one), I had only 25 turns by the time I hit internet before I got my SV. So considering the build time of the final wonder and the travel time of the musicians...I have 15...maybe 18ish turns to make this strategy work. And simply put...I don't see anything that special about waiting on my GMs. I can easily faith buy 3 GMS (the 4th one is a lot more effort...I think I would have rather bought an earlier GP for a holy site...or maybe 1 more GS to get to Internet just a little bit faster). I think we just a little bit of timing optimization I could have gotten 2 GMs through cities....and still have a number of great works of music from earlier to back it up.

    So I think waiting to Internet is not a great strategy. Now the question is...how about waiting until Telecom? Still a maybe, I'll have to give that a try.


    I also took a look at some of the late game CV points, just to get a better understanding of how strong they are.


    A CV Breakdown
    Spoiler :

    I wanted to look at some data points regarding the CV.

    The Telecommunication Jump: So how strong is telecommunications really? I got the tech on Turn 382 (man this was a slow science game!).

    Tourism (Turn 381): 731
    Tourism (Turn 388): 1,042 (42.5% increase)

    So this factors in the National Visitor's Center, Airport (I got radio shortly after picking up Telecom), and the CN Tower. The CN tower was responsible for 30% of the overall jump.

    The Internet Jump: I've always wondered how much that "greatly increases tourism" clause matters. The answer...a lot!

    Tourism (Turn 393): 1,042
    Tourism (Turn 394): 1,828 (82% increase)

    Overall: In 13 turns, my base tourism increased by 150%.


    Early vs Late Tourism: So something I was very curious about. How much of my overall tourism was generated after Internet as opposed to before (I really wish I had also saved this before Telecom but alas I forgot).

    Total Tourism to Mongolia: 387,859
    Total Tourism before Internet: 96,703

    %Tourism generated pre Internet: 25%
    %Tourism generated post Internet: 75%

    So I accomplished 75% of the CV tourism requirement (on Mongolia at least) in 13 turns. Its actually not as high as I had thought, but its still pretty darn high. I bet if we look at Telecom and after it would be over 90%. This is why I argue that early tourism is just not a big factor in the overall CV game.

    %Modifiers Matter: Another interesting data point. With Persia I managed to get 369,321 tourism. That's only ~20k less than Mongolia, with 0 bombs!

    Why was Persia so high? I did manage open borders on occasion with them, and a single TR on occasion (but only rarely, I was very cut off from ETRs this game to everyone both Iroquois and England). They also had order, so I still had the -15% penalty.

    I think the secret was boredom. A solid 69% bonus from boredom (my bonus from Mongolia was 6%).

    I think this is key note in the variability (and viability) of CVs.....boredom matters a LOT!!!! I can be doing amazing working a civ, but if the boredom is low, it will really slow me down. Conversely a civ where I don't have great modifiers, but is very bored....will still net me massive tourism returns.

    If I were to pick out a flaw in CV design, I think its this. Boredom is a bonus you have very little control over, and yet it makes a massive difference in CV viability.


    Some Notes on Industry
    Spoiler :

    I've been down on Industry for a long time, and I wanted to see if this playthrough changed any thoughts. On the one hand, I did catch up very quickly in infrastructure, to the point where all of my cities were just working science process for most of the end game. It also nets me 1 GM through broadway. The big culture from broadway also let me complete the Rationalism tree very late in the game as well (its a damn fine wonder).

    However, my general opinion of Industry still stands. Its not that its "bad", its just not good for what I need. When I am playing CV, I never have trouble getting the tenants I need, its the tourism that's the goal. So the science from rationalism will actually get me to those key jump techs quicker, which is a big deal. Rationalism also further speeds me up for SV if a CV falls through and I need to change plans. If I'm going wider or more aggressive, Imperalism gets me the better and bigger army...and is no slouch in the yields either.

    In theory DV might be a good candidate for Industry....in practice however I find that late game diplo units are really only useful for maintaining friendships. I need spheres to maintain alliances...it doesn't matter if industry lets me throw 10-15% more diplo units....when the AI can already throw 30% more.

    So I keep coming back to... I do not know when Industry is ever the "right choice". It can be a fun choice, but if I'm playing competitively it always feels like I get closer to victory conditions using the other 2.


    A quick note on Solar Plants
    Spoiler :

    I've also been down on Solar Plants for a while, so since my late game was cruise control I took a look at their viability compared hydro/wind plants. Since in this game I had science process running for a long time because of Industry, it seemed the best chance for solar plants to prove themselves.

    So in general my good satellites were generating ~420-470 hammers. That's 63 - 70.5 more science from the process due to the solar plant. In general I was getting about 30-45 science from the wind plant (both the terrain and the fact that 5% more production form the plant itself does generate a tiny bit of science.

    So assuming that the city never stops working the science process, and you don't care at all about the gold and hammers from the wind plant....the solar plant does generate a bit more science in this scenario (which granted is the most important yield at this point in the game). Ultimately though I think the difference is so minor at this point in the game that you probably wouldn't notice either way.... so I think it simply comes down to whether you would rather spend an iron or aluminum for your plant.
     
  7. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper King

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    Pretty much everything with 6 cities i had 13 distress, 7 poverty, 12 illiteracy, intermittent isolation from barbs pillaging my routes and 7 boredom, I rage quit the last match as Netherlands very early *around turn 170 epic speed* because of the never ending barbarians spawning and my second city revolting *even after it revolted my happiness levels was 36% lol*, needless to say i was solely building infrastructure because it's impossible to build units with this level of happiness let alone go to war.

    I did not have trouble with emperor difficulty, Immortal was somewhat challenging but it was winnable for me but right now even Emperor is not manageable ... i'll try reverting to a previous beta to see if the same issue still exists or it's just me being an aweful player lol.
     
  8. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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    @Stalker0
    I notice that you are able to play more than 400 turns with (6-19-2)
    How do you do that?
    What is your precise setting?
    On my end, and many many tries, I get CTD before 20 turns on a clean Civ5 install.

    Since April, VP is experiencing a sort of dark age with bugs and CTDs alongside with many improvements as well, fortunatly.
    I wish G, Ilteroi and Recursive (the main contributors currently) courage to pack soon a nice and playable version of VP for everybody.
    The ton a GitHub report should help. Thx for those who do it.
     
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  9. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    Nah, Emperor is fine. Maybe your cities were badly placed or AI had unusually high yields generation. Do you use any modmods that change balance, like popular 3&4UC? It could cause yields inflation for AI.
     
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  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    My settings are Standard Size Map, Standard Speed, normal civs and city state numbers. Emperor Difficulty, Ruins on, Transparent Diplomacy On. Map is Communitas_79a 1.17, with strategic balance ON.

    I am also getting recurring CTDs on this patch. Generally what I do is restart from the previous turn (I autosave every turn and keep the last 5 saves), and try to alter my play a little bit (don't invest in a building, don't plant a GP, don't take the city that turn, that kind of thing).

    This is normally enough to let me play through. I did get one CTD I reported on Github that I just could not work through, otherwise I can normally stumble through it.
     
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  11. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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    Yea, I use to do that after ~100 turns. It occured before very rarely.
    CTD at T5 + more than one bug about Air Units mechanics, considering that the goal is to make tests on my EAW project, it makes me mad !
    I'm using an old version instead.

    Thx for your answer.
     
  12. Soupy Delicious

    Soupy Delicious Warlord

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    I'm not having any ctd problems :0. Just had a 900 turn game with none. Are you guys using modpacks or somethin?
     
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  13. XSamatan

    XSamatan Chieftain

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    Three games to the end and not one CTD on this version.
    Might just be a bad modmod combination or else.

    Regards
    XSamatan
     
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  14. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper King

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    I'm using 4th UC but i don't think it's the cause for the massive yield inflation if that is truely the cause, i started a game on the previous beta using the exact same settings and mods on an objectively much slower and generally worse start than the matches i quit *dyes as forested plantation as opposed to pearls on the the match i quit* i managed to settle 7 cities and played the first 200 turns, my happiness did not drop below 70% without even completing the road connections between my cities.
    Something feels really off in the current version at least for me .... Although i liked the changes in this version especially lighthouse and harbour CS but i think i'm sticking to the "playable" version for the time being.
     
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  15. Soupy Delicious

    Soupy Delicious Warlord

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    Give me some of them barbarians.

    I'm playing with raging barbarians and I'm barely getting any... :| I guess it's because there's always other civs around but I doubt.
     
  16. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper King

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    Barbarians spawning because of empire unhappiness levels are below 34%
     
  17. Soupy Delicious

    Soupy Delicious Warlord

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    Oh, guess I should start committing genocide or something, to upset the people
     
  18. glider1

    glider1 Deity

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    I got through at least two autoplays to 500 turns on this version plus your enhanced air and navy mods without a CTD thanks for your mod. I didn't hand play I was just doing some tests. I'm on a W10 64bit PC with plenty of RAM.
     
  19. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    That's weird, because there were no changes to happiness in this patch. At least not noted. Maybe some bug? But still, why didn't I have it? People that has that massive happiness problem seems to be a minority.
     
  20. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Once more into the Fray. Did I finally break the streak and manage a CV?

    Standard Emperor with Arabia on Communitas_79. Victory on Turn 362 by......
    Spoiler :
    CV!!!!! hehe, but I also got SV on Turn 365:)



    So this was the map. It was the perfect peaceful CV map. I had my own piece of the continent, great size for exactly 5 cities, with 3 CS to the north to serve of buffers against the AIs. Really good capital land. To me this was make or break...if I couldn't manage a CV on this map, I think it was time to throw in the towel.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-7-15_0-48-38.png


    Until the very end of the game, this was as smooth and peaceful as it gets. I got to trade alot, everyone was happy. I was teching and culturing like a madman, all the good things in life.

    Then some wrinkles occured in the end game. First, I had no coal (which I think is a map bug because I had strategic balance on). So I had to refinery everything to get train stations, and then couldn't afford factories. Of course no one wanted to trade coal:(

    Then I got sanctioned. Then immediately afterward got Travel Banned. And then the world declared war on me. Man the AI really didn't want to give me a CV!!!

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-7-15_0-52-10.png


    That is just a taste of what Poland brought to bear. There was another 3 or so carriers floating out there, all filled with planes. I saw over 16 planes at one point...more than I have ever seen from a single engagement. 2 Atomic Bombs as well. I honestly thought I was completely screwed.

    And then AI proceeded to perform the greatest faceplant I have seen in years. Staggering stupidity that I reported on Github. It had 2 atomic bombs...within range of my capital! Never fired them.

    All of the planes? Threw themselves against 4 mobile sams and just died one after the other.

    Carriers? Decided being 2 squares away from cities and machine guns was a good idea.

    So within short order I ripped open an army that was both more advanced and larger than mine...I couldn't believe it.


    So back to the CV. So I got tripped up on both victory condtions this game. The lack of coal meant no factories in my satellites, which meant no spaceship factories in my satellites. So while I blitz in tech, it took a long time to build the parts.

    Meanwhile on CV I went a more traditional musician play. I bulbed all of them early. This time, I tried to time it so my 3 guild cities would push out a musician right after internet, coupled with 3 faith bought musician and 1 from International Games for the final push. I managed 2 of the 3 musicians, my timing was off on the third. However, the war declarations prevented me from using them....without the war I would have finished up the play about 10 turns quicker. However, the Netherlands gave up the war pretty quickly and easily. If it had realized it was in such danger of losing to CV, it could have simply kept the war going. I am not able to bulb GM while at war....so it could have pushed my victory back a good 20 turns or more....which once again is always the pain with CV...a smart player really can just shut it down wholesale.

    So though it wasn't much faster than a SV, I finally got a CV in the bank. I actually did a very (very!) detailed breakdown of my tourism progress this game, and I will post that once I have a chance to clean it all up.
     

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