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New Official Version - October 7th (10-7)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Oct 7, 2020.

  1. HixBozo

    HixBozo Warlord

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    Big AI overhaul is needed in the trade department. As others have reported, we can't have these constant trade pop-ups interrupting the flow of the turns. Needs some workaround. @Recursive
     
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  2. Solic

    Solic Chieftain

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    I actually enjoy being asked for defensive pacts/luxuries/strategics/WC votes etc instead of having to be proactive myself all the time. It also brings AI more alive to me.

    They seem to be undervaluing strategics however. I prefer the diplomatic way to be asked for war, where you can take 10 turns as opposed to being asked in trade screen. This is probably excarcabated by the current version having a lot of war requests for just open borders and 2 GPT. I have never accepted such a request.

    Basically I like the direction of where deal AI is going, but still some kinks could be worked out.
     
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  3. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    I play epic speed almost exclusively and i can definitely feel the impact on game pace, entering the Renaissance era at turn 200~210 was not something i used to see very often, industrial era techs being researched at an average of 8~12 turns with a civ that has no bonuses to science is also a concern (this is not counting Great scientists blob).
    I would like to see Epic speed teching pace get some road bumps to preserve the feel of actually playing a slower speed.
     
    bigcat88 and brutalz like this.
  4. Deljade

    Deljade Warlord

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    Observations and comments from my game (Byzantium, Huge, Epic, Immortal)

    The game
    -Tundra start, lots of space for cities, went with a religious wide tourism strategy.
    -Had to actually defend my lands only once in the medieval era so could slack on unit production and upgrades.
    -I think this game perfectly showcases the amount of cities each player gets in a 15 player 30 CS Huge map. Most AIs had around 8 cities. The more successful ones had 10 and 11. Pedro, a tall AI on his own continent rolled with 5 for the longest time. I had 12+ entering Industrial. My continent was pretty big, albeit, mostly snow and tundra, and I did forward settle Neb.
    -Maybe I could claw out a win if I played until the end but I will consider this game a loss. Pedro just beat me in the :tourism: department. He was influential with every civs except myself. I had alright tourism but not nearly enough. My wide tourism strategy just didn't work. Kinda weird having to retire while being first on several categories on the scoreboard (but not science, my science was poor, would have to get different tenets and run Science processes and Specialists to go for a SV)
    Difficulty
    -The fact that I had to roll back some turns to sharpen my play in order to get the Parthenon and the Sistine Chapel, as well as some other things like military score etc etc tell me that maybe Immortal got too hard for me to enjoy. Not necessarily a bad thing.
    -Might be possible that it's just the poor terrain I was playing on and my dubious strategy that made the game difficult.
    Trade Deals
    -Too many phony wars deals. Just because I don't churn out units on the same rate as you dear AI it doesn't mean you should war me for open borders or whatever from the other side of the world. Or does it? Either way it's bad player experience and not necessarily disruptive, just immersion breaking and obnoxious.
    -Strategic resources severely undervalued. Iron went from being 20 gold a piece to 20 pieces for 1 gold. Can't we find some middleground? I am seeing AIs desperate for strategics offering me ridiculously bad deals, of course they got nothing. I prefer to have the Iron burn a hole in my pocket rather than give an AI 10 extra Cruisers for 1 GPT.
    -I am very conflicted about tech trading. On the one hand, I feel it makes for a more balanced experience as civs that are behind can catch up and civs with a lot of :c5gold: but not enough :c5science: can keep up. On the other hand, I am fairly sure it is what messes up the game pace the most. The Industrial is somewhat trivialised as an era in the latest patches because of the very high incidence of trade deals. I found myself 4 techs behind all AIs all of a sudden in the Industrial, even though I kept up before. Of course most of them had traded the techs (no tech brokering so they couldn't sell the techs they hadn't researched). Of course I had to trade for a bunch of techs to keep up. It makes the game very weird. Tech trading was different a few patches ago, not sure how, but it wasn't done in this frequency.
    Policies
    -From some tests, I can tell that Progress still doesn't have enough culture to get the Parthenon as a civ without any bonuses to culture. I had a strong culture pantheon so I could take it after 1 retry to minmax my gameplay. I guess this also says something about how much the AI likes that wonder.
    -This was a game where the Tradition AIs were most successful. Also the vast majority of the AIs picked Rationalism. I think complaints such as "everyone picks X policy tree" can be explained by random chance rolling a lot of AIs that favour a certain tree in a single game.
    -Order's Resettlement is just... bad... at least the new cities part. I sometimes get it as 4th T2 for the +pop. But I was in a game where I built multiple new cities after I had the chance to get it as my first T2 and still didn't go for it. It needs something more like extra :c5production: for Settler type units or some other bonus to new Cities.
    Game Pace
    -Felt somewhat off, I'll try to explain what I can.
    -Not enough time to build spare units. In other games I had gaps to build some units or secondary buildings and do processes. Usually a little in Ancient era a decent gap in Medieval era, one in early Industrial too etc. This game, even though I picked some very strong production policies, I never felt relieved from the pressure of high priority buildings until the Atomic era (aka the era that doesn't unlock any new buildings or wonders). This was NOT the case in my games in the previous patches.
    -Industrial era has the most messed up pace. The techs are taking more turns than before but as tech trading became available, the AIs just frantically started trading with each other and my only way to keep up was to trade myself. Got the majority of Industrial techs by trading. The fact that most of them had a free tech from Rationalism probably messed things up further.
    -Overall I think the game will be ending on a similar number of turns as the last patch but the pace felt worse for me.
    Wide Tourism
    -Just doesn't work. Tall, Tradition-Artistry into Freedom Tourism seems to be optimal. Warmonger Authority-Artistry puppet tourism is also decent with some civs. Wide tourism is impossible. Is there a thematic or gameplay reason? If not, I think it's due for some rework.
    -The plan was to get Sacred Sites and 3 religious buildings along with Monasteries from fealty. Use the sick :c5faith: generation to fill Great work slots in many cities. And go over the 75% tourism penalty cap so that every new city would be a boost to :tourism:. Well, the 75% penalty is just too much, Tourism by nature is concentrated on a few cities, so, even with all the per city +:tourism: that I grabbed, it still wasn't enough to compete with a tall Tourism civ like Pedro. Thinking that I can fill any great work slots without Tradition and Artistry was also extremely optimistic. Not enough :c5faith: to get Writers and Artists early, too many assassinations etc etc. Trying my best to preserve and settle forests and Landmarks didn't work. Not seeing Hidden sites also did suck.
    -The reduced Tourism instant yields were also extremely detrimental, I understand reduction of per city :tourism: on bigger empires. But why the instant yields? It's not like you get more Historic events when you are bigger. Okay you get a couple more Zoos, woah.
    -Order's policies DO NOT help wide tourism. The one that Gives a bonus to civs with less :c5happy: is missleading. It doesn't actually look at empire-wide :c5happy:, which would actually be quite good for wide, but it looks at approval rating. The other one is okay, I guess, the % bonus is unreliable like Fealty's Shared religion bonus. They both are waaaaaaaaaay better for Tall Tourism Order, if you wanna do that instead of Freedom, I guess.
    Miscellaneous
    -Tundra Pantheon, very good for the early game, better than Hunt for Tundra Starts. I think a bit too similar with Hunt as it is now though.
    -Got 20 Iron out of nowhere at some point, reminded me of similar bugs in the past.
    -Anything changed with spies? They felt reaaaaally off this game, or maybe I didn't use them properly?
    -I was getting -48% warmonger penalty after conquering one city. ONE city. The first city I conquered in the entire game. In the first war I waged in the entire game. Is this right? And many AIs thought I was bringing the world to a dark age. Are we sure there's not some overflow bug in the warmonger points thingy??
    -Pioneers were waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too expensive, they don't compare well to neither the settlers nor the Colonists. 15 Turns without growth is too much. It's waaaay better to just build a bunch of Settlers in advance and give 700 or whatever gold to upgrade them, or wait for Colonists. Colonists are okay. Wouldn't mind their cities being just a liiiittle stronger.
    -I like being able to build Lighthouses, Harbours and Seaports in Lake cities. It means I can get a fish or two if I can bring a Work Boat from somewhere else. Came into play a couple of times if you can tell from the screenshots. Though I think these buildings should only be available if city has a Coast tile within it's borders (ie a completely landlocked inland lake city has no reason to be able to build a Lighthouse, as opposed to one two tiles from the sea)
    -Oh, also, the city manager. He liked to halt my cities' growth a lot and work specialists over decent tiles. For a bunch of unhappiness too. It also occasionally worked abysmal tiles (+1:c5food: tundra) Had to micro quite a bit, did anything change? I think the City Manager could be a reason why Tradition did so well in this game, as they benefit a lot from that kind of management. If others can see that Tradition overperforms or AI's cities do not grow well enough.

    Overall I really enjoyed parts of the game, especially the unique terrain and the unique playstyle of attempting wide religious tourism. But a lot of things like the pacing in industrial, the spies, and the deal AI really got in the way. I would probably need to do more games on reduced difficulty, with tech trading off etc. to come to any concrete conclusions, shame I have less time to play now : (
    There's some pics
    Spoiler Start :
    20201013044752_1.jpg

    Spoiler Classical :
    20201013085558_1.jpg

    Spoiler Renaissance :
    20201014070210_1.jpg

    Spoiler Atomic :
    20201017134121_1.jpg 20201017134100_1.jpg

    Spoiler Well oiled Tourism machine vs this mess (one has the internet but still) :
    20201017100807_1.jpg 20200928095051_1.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  5. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond Prince

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    There is religious pressure from TR but I can't see it in the trade route window (the one where you see the list of cities and their yields when you have a caravan selected). Am I the only one with this bug?
     
  6. Standup

    Standup Chieftain

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    Similar here. Turn 81 and can't load any save games now.
     
  7. andersw

    andersw Emperor

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    Should work with the latest hotfixes 10-7-2.
     
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  8. James Ryle

    James Ryle Chieftain

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    Do anyone think that as space becomes limited to found cities, the AI will build cities in extremely suboptimal areas just to get the founding city bonus to use it immediately for an immediate plan...? (The bonus ALL AI civs get for founding cities) I only ask because in my last game, the Zulus (who were at my boarders) and were 2 techs behind me then built a city in an extremely suboptimal spot. Over the next few turns they had the same amount of technology and the one to produce their UU. Upgraded their troops ASAP and attacked me.

    I'm just wondering is this coincidental or has anyone else seen the AI use such tactics.
    EG - Build a city to immediately get a bonus to acquire a certain tech with an objective to use that tech immediately. Is that coded anywhere? If so, well done but I'll have to be on extra guard from militaristic AI etc in the future. (It could even be a gold bonus to upgrade troops for an imminent attack).

    As I'm typing this I can't even remember now if Civs get an science bonus on founding cities or is that on entering a new era...?
     
  9. andersw

    andersw Emperor

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    Not as much as they used to but it depends a bit on difficulty and how late in game.
    I think the AI would however settle a crap city for horse/iron.
    On diety you can expect every inch to get settled.
    But it also depends on settings, I use low seas to get less cramped environment and less "spear rush capital friendly".
    This also means that after most have settled 3-4 cities there is still room for more.
     
    James Ryle likes this.
  10. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

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    I wouldn't mind if the AI was made not to be so stupid aggressive to settle that one tundra tile with snow all around it because it's JUST outside your city build limit. If a human player did it, it would be an insanely poor move. The AI can do it because of the bonuses it get's piled on even mid range difficultly levels. I know the AI needs these to compete with human players, but I so hate when it becomes crazy obvious they are playing a different game than me.

    It's the same reason I never play past King. It quickly becomes clear that your playing a different rule set when you need to defeat their units 3 to 1 to have a chance of winning a war. Not really a complaint though, it's why difficultly levels are an option.
     
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  11. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond Prince

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    They do get science when they found cities. But I doubt they are coded to know they get a bonus when they do so.
     
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  12. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

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    They are do seem to be coded to keep expanding until they can't find any more places to put cities. Different civs have a weight against how fast they do this, but they will all take plots that a human would find a waste.

    Sometimes one will snap and just keep building settlers in mass though there are no places left to put them. Kind of funny.
     
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  13. Deljade

    Deljade Warlord

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    This is sort of vanilla behaviour. Dare I say it was much worse in vanilla. I think it really depends on the civ.
     
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  14. HixBozo

    HixBozo Warlord

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    Is Indonesia fixed in this version ?

    I will not play any other version of Vox Populi until I have 120% affirmative that Indonesia is fixed.
     
  15. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    What's wrong with Indonesia? I played it a couple of versions back and it seemed to be working well.
     
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  16. andersw

    andersw Emperor

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    I think there been some issues with their free lux spawns not appearing.
     
  17. HixBozo

    HixBozo Warlord

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    Yes the luxury spawn is not working for Indonesia on island maps. This needs to be fixed before I play any Vox Populi game again. I don't like to play broken games mechanics out of the question because when I start to play I sink many hours and I want it to be working correctly.
     
  18. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    Ughhh, maybe report it on github and it'll get fixed eventually and i think while G sorts it out you should use the time you are not playing to sort out your attitude :)
     
  19. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  20. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    Playing an interesting game as Isabella on Emperor, Epic,Communitu_79 Terra, No ruins or events raging barbs 8 civs 16 CS gota couple of points i'd like to bring to the devs attention.
    • When the barbarian horde CS quest starts it's common to see other AIs DOW the CS as it's an opportunity to conquer it ... Expected behaviour from any AI but the current CS Ally should don't do this because they do ... England, the ally of Budapest declared war on them as soon as the horde attacked the city .... I think there should be a brake on the opportunistic approach to this particular scenario.
    • I'm not sure if this is normal behavior or not but the Iroquois conquered one of China's cities then i conquered China and eliminated them from the game but later i DOWed the Iroquois and conquered the Chinese city they took earlier but i did not get the option to liberate it ... Is it because i'm the one who eliminated them or there is another reason?
    • Brokered war really hurt the AI much more than a human player; it does seem to bypass every check thr AI does before going to war and at that very low value for trade (2 GPT and open borders) the AI seems to accept every single one of them regardless of their military power or how easy of a target the enemy is ..... I think i might just turn them off for the time being.
    • I'm not sure about how standard speed feels but at Epic i'm always behind in terms of infrastructure compared to tech even with building only the essential buildings and going for ITR and skipping medieval and Renaissance wonders altogether it's just really fast and techs requiring only around 10 turns and sometimes less to research with a civ that has no bonuses to science just feels wrong.
    • I think we finally hit the sweet spot in terms of city combat strength and ranged attacks; tradition capitals are still tough but not impossible to conquer and coastal cities are no longer the formidable fortresses in the early game nor the sand castles later in the game.
    • The new tundra pantheon is absolutely amazing especially for warmongers; i don't have to waste hammers or gold on multiple workers as first priority and it boosts the early game really well that i think i'd give Sweden back their tundra start bias in my local setup ..... I did modify it to include resources on snow as well and i did like it that way, maybe we could do that in the next version?
    • Not going to write much about it here but i still think Defender of the faith and Crusaders Spirit need a buff; they are really underwhelming.
    • Please leave Isabella alone :( :(:(; She is one of the most fun civs to play at the moment despite being not really close at all to how irl Spain was but i think there is an agreement around here that fun > realism.
     
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