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New Official Version - October 7th (10-7)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Oct 7, 2020.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I agree with you that a happiness buffer should be expected when expanding....to me happiness is the barrier that you have to overcome to warrant a new city, so that makes complete sense.

    I do not agree with population. Simply put, I fundamentally reject that stopping growth should be a core happiness management tactic. I think its prudent when you get a happiness bomb, such as when you get sanctioned and all of your luxs go away or are in a long war and your war weariness is creeping up. In those situations it makes a lot of sense to have to limit growth to address your "crisis" needs. However, if I'm just building along (especially if I am doing nothing but building), I should not need to stop growth in order to keep my cities from the throes of unhappiness....that to me is a scenario where the happiness system is not properly tuned.
     
    Vhozite, vyyt, Erikose and 6 others like this.
  2. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    On a sidenote, here is what a well placed lake can do for you in the current version : the advantages of a maritime city, with almost none of the dangers.

    Spoiler Have you got your ticket to enter lake Onondaga, captain ? :

    20201016135328_1.jpg
     
    phantomaxl1207, vyyt, Erikose and 2 others like this.
  3. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So there is a key difference between the rebels and the other penalties. With the other penalties, the answer is economic. You need to get luxes, build more buildings, stop growth, etc. This is fine, that is what you are supposed to do to manage happiness, so the game saying "hey ramp up those happiness actions!", is a good feedback mechanism. And the 10 turn timer on city revolts gives you a strong pressure...but at least a little bit of time to get your house in order. It "scares" you, but gives you some time before it "hurts you". Further, while losing a city to revolt feels awful....it has the one saving grace of immediately helping your happiness. Aka, the punishment helps fix the problem.

    Rebels don't operate that way. First of all, they require a military instead of economic solution. Suddenly a new curveball has been thrown in to the happiness game. Now I have to BOTH address economic (happiness) AND military (rebel) concerns at the same time in order to fix my happiness. This doubles the pressure....I would argue its actually more like 3x the pressure.

    Second, one of the thing Rebels do in most cases....they grab workers, cut roads, and pillage your lands. This both increases your unhappiness, and reduces your ability to correct it. While city revolts actually help fix your happiness problem (which stabilizes you), rebels exacerbate your unhappiness (which crushes you).


    So beyond the mouthfeel of rebel units in game, I do not think they are a good game mechanic. They don't "punish then correct", they "destroy and kick you when your down".
     
  4. griD77

    griD77 Chieftain

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    I agree with that - let's see what happens when the tech costs are increased in the next version.
    Stopping growth should not be a core mechanic to keep happiness above 50%. I'm trying to build a civ, not preach celibacy :lol:
     
    vyyt likes this.
  5. AndreyK

    AndreyK Prince

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    But if you build a lighthouse, harbor and seaport, they wouldn't affect a lake tiles
     
  6. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    Stalker, that has been a staple of my Deity playthroughs for so long I can't remember VP without having to occassionally use limit growth option during periods where there are fewer sources of happiness and of unhappiness reduction. How, in specific terms, would you change things? Maybe we could start by limiting unhappiness from specialists to be limited the same way as others (so limited to the number of citizens in the city)?
     
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    A fair position, and as a peacenik I respect that more offensive type players think differently than I do. So I guess the challenge would be...can we have our cake and eat it too? Can we give you the same kind of "open revolt" concept without screwing me when I'm unhappy?

    Perhaps something like, "when you raze a city, if the enemy's unhappiness is below 35%....the partisans become barbarians". Or "when you pillage a tile, if the enemy's unhappiness is below 35%, there is a % chance a barbarian appears near their capital". As a modmod expert with a lot of good ideas, is there anything that comes to mind that could serve both of our interests?

    hehe you don't want to get me started on that one:) I have been with the mod since the early days, and the happiness system has been my chief complaint since its inception. My thoughts on it have ranged from "tolerant indifference" to "toss it in the garbage and light it on fire".

    I have tried various suggestions, both small and wholesale over the years, but none have proven popular (aka I have never found a change that resonated with the people, which is rightfully expected if I want a big change to go through). So I think we just stick with tuning the values... or perhaps a simple adjustment in the tech speed will put things back in the right place.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  8. Revolutionist_8

    Revolutionist_8 Prince

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    So? That's the whole point. It should be hard. If you can't manage your country well, it's your fault. If you're being dragged into a tough situation even if you're doing everything correct, well then, tough luck. That's what is called as challenge.

    Not to mention you can just literally turn them off by a single click.
     
  9. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    Yes, and the fact that the spot is devoid of maritime ressources makes that element even more true : this kind of waterway allows having a maritime military production without exposing yourself. In the case of this game, the fact that I was next to Carthage meant that having maritime cities in the early game was very dangerous. With this lake, I can still send cargo ships at least.
    Plus, I play the Iroquois : as long as I have the plantations and/or forests/jungles, I already have plenty of yields for my capital.
     
  10. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    I agree, lake tiles shouldn't unlock coastal buildings!
     
    Zuizgond likes this.
  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Do you mean turn of barbs entirely? That would be a massive gameplay change. If your saying there is a way to turn off rebels specifically, I am all ears!
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  12. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    One thing I think is silly, as Stalker pointed out, is that most times the rebellious barbs will spawn immediately with absolutely no buffer -- I've had turns where they seemingly spawn despite me actually being above 35%.
     
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  13. Nightmare Dusk

    Nightmare Dusk Chieftain

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    Personally, while it might be problematic, i think barbs and the countdown for losing a city should be different percentages, like barbarians start spawning at 40%, and a city will try to leave at 30%. The actual percentages can be different to be balanced, but the effects should be staggered
     
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  14. DizzKneeLand33

    DizzKneeLand33 Fall from Heaven 2 still rocks

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    COMPLETELY this.
     
  15. 2506

    2506 Warlord

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    I think what happens is that you dip under 35% during processing. By the time your turn starts, you're back over, but... too late.
     
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  16. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Warlord

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    I really like that feature actually, making use of this sort of highly defensible natural ports in lagunae is immersive and part of the settling game, like venice, amsterdam, cienfuegos (new york to a degree...). On balance, coastal buildings only buff sea resources, which you have much less of in this setup. Maybe simply enemy ships should be able to use the canal if no friendly unit is stationed on the tile.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
  17. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    What's distinct to me about rebels is that you can't fight a war if you need your troops at home to protect your cities. When the penalty is mostly economic, you can keep fighting and hope for better days. Having an extra front to fight on that also disrupts your supply lines etc. really pushes you to make peace at any cost. I like that - it feels real. Sometimes things break that can't be fixed, no matter how hard you try.

    If you could control when rebellions occur with precision, there would be situations where it's in your best interest to keep people just unhappy enough that they don't take up arms against you. That's not the kind of situation that should be stable, or something you can control or manage with little nudges.

    Also, if they have any kind of organisation the rebels aren't going to want you to know when they plan to attack. They want to strike when you're vulnerable - it makes sense that a national crisis might be used to attempt a coup d'etat. Especially when the military is occupied elsewhere.
    This might help. I like the idea of staggered effects. I wouldn't mind barbs spawning first actually, because surely small groups would be willing to fight before the whole city leaves your empire? I guess it depends what 'rebels' means in this context, but I don't get the impression they usually have much of a chance at capturing cities. Mostly they just cause chaos.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
    Kim Dong Un, Drakle, mcdunne and 4 others like this.
  18. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    At the moment, the happiness system can punish you, even you have done everything right. (+50% higher score than best AI, tech and policy leader, everything constructed what is possible, 1-2 PW in each city, all tiles improved, 9 cities on standard map, always peaceful, but still only between 40 and 50% happiness)
    That is no challenge, that's imbalanced.

    I think, a happiness system based mainly on median values isnt simply working. I can understand the intention of implementing medians as representing the real world. But this clearly sacrifices game play stability.
    It misses its original target. (in my eyes)
    And in all the years I saw only 1 direct try to develop an answer to this question (it was a poll), but didn't came to a final statement cause the attention got pulled away to an other proplem (can't remember what it was).

    An inner problem of the current version is, that something you might have done 50 turns ago, can turn against you in the present, cause the happiness system is so complex. It's absolutely impossible to predict how much happiness I will have in 10 turns. Maybe I plant 2 more cities cause I have a save amount of happiness and 30 turns later, the unhappiness from the 2 extra cities and the empire modificator pulls my whole empire 10 or 15% down under the 50% treshhold and my whole empire have to suffer from a lof penalties.

    Trying to represent the real world with poverty, illiteracy, boredom looks so familiar and accurate, but I think it creates more problems for the game play and balance than adding fun and challenge to the game.
     
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  19. stii

    stii King

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    I think the idea you can play perfectly and still have issues with happiness is a bit overblown. This mod seriously rewards/punishes increasing all your yields. If you can optimize things your cities will generally be happy because the extra production provides happiness and this then leads to more buildings which again provide happiness. The issues is it can snowball the other way and once you get in trouble it can be hard to dig yourself out. So it makes the early game even more important.

    I guess the closest thing to vanilla civ would be ideological, it mostly doesn't matter but when it does it can crush you. Except it comes from the start.

    Also the fact it can be avoided doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed. It does seem to be the most complained about thing.
     
  20. Nightmare Dusk

    Nightmare Dusk Chieftain

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    While it might not solve the problem (could potentially make it worse) why is happiness decided by median rather then the average yields. Yes it doesn't get rid of outliers like someone snowballing or somebody tanking, but i believe it would bring the amount of yield needed generally down, and would prevent any minor spikes in happiness as people increase yields. Besides, if a couple people are pulling ahead yieldwise that hard to hurt happiness, it kind of is already over. There would still be the same amount of unhappiness, but it should be spread more evenly along everyone, easing up the pressure on the people near bottom. I just feel atm happiness punishes non optimized play and city placement more rather then over expansion.

    Honestly, i wouldn't be mad if happiness system didn't get changed, it's part of the challenge of the game and it shouldn't be easy. I'm just blowing off some steam and offering a way we could change it that i think would work better
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020

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