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New Official Version - October 7th (10-7)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Oct 7, 2020.

  1. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    For the next version, I was hoping something could be done about Stonehenge's instant faith boost on non-standard speeds.

    I decided to go for it a Marathon game or so ago, but when I completed it I didn't have enough faith to found a pantheon (100/150), whereas I would have otherwise had enough on Standard (50/50)

    Feels unintended for the spirit of the wonder I think (Enough faith for a pantheon).
     
    Heinz_Guderian, SupTo, Hinin and 7 others like this.
  2. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Simply another thought about the unhappiness thing in my game I have posted.

    Independently if the happiness system is too harsh or not, I had no happiness issues when I had all my cities to food focus. That the governor tries at this focus to reach a maximum of food and ignore everything else is clear.
    But my empire falls into deep unhappiness after switching my cities back to the normal focus. Shouldn't the governor try to avoid too much unhappiness at the normal setting? Is the governor of a city aware of the city/empire happiness?
    If not, should it?
     
  3. Nightmare Dusk

    Nightmare Dusk Chieftain

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    Hopping on this, my belief is that default focus should either
    A. Max Happiness
    B. Max Yields

    Also, is it anyway possible to add another focus? I want the mayor to max yields on everything but food personally in my games, but that's mostly because he has a huge want to work food, which with happiness as it is, uncontrolled growth is terrible
     
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Standard Communitas Immortal with Russia. SV on Turn 349.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-11-21_14-9-16.png


    This one started out a bit messy, as I had a somewhat isolated capital with that giant jungle of death to the south, so I wound up spreading out a lot, and then Greece pushed into the jungle and cut my civ in 2. But overall I stabilized and turned in a very fast SV game as Russia. I generally haven't noticed the tech pace being that much faster in game, but 349 is pretty damn fast for me.

    Just a few notes:

    1) It used to be that when the WC formed the immediate play from the AI was "World Religion: My religion". It has now become "Sanction: The leader". Its not a bad play but it would be nice to see more randomness. I rarely see bad luxuries presented anymore either (not that I mind too much, I'm not the biggest fan of that one).

    2) I took a look at my end game cities (not capital, with a wide playstyle). I am noticing consistently buildings that I am not building...either due to cost or simply lack of time. Here is my general list.
    • Agribusiness (this one may be surprising, but it may be a map specific thing, I rarely have enough farms/pastures in a single city to be worth the cost, so I only use these sparingly).
    • Hospital / Medical Lab (good for capital, but hard to justify in a lot of cities)
    • Stock Exchange (very expensive)
    • Military Base (except for coastal cities)
    • Museum / Broadcast Tower (the museum gives surprisingly little benefit for its cost, and so it tends to block broadcast towers as well...I do prioritize this more for a CV).
    • Hotel / Zoo / Stadium (Zoos are terrain specific so they do sometimes get built)
    • Refinery / Recycling Center (these are expected of course).
    • Strategic Defense Center (just to ensure my capital doesn't get destroyed, otherwise I don't usually bother)
    • Constabulary / Police Station (and I only build police station for the national wonder).

    3) Vassals seem more agreeable to selling you there votes for a reasonable price, that's been great to see.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020 at 3:32 PM
  5. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Thinking about it, it gets even weirder.
    Maxing the yields should automatically lead to the lowest unhappiness, cause you also should have then the highest yield per population ratio. This would be the case, if we had only unhappiness cause of a difference from your per pop yields and the median.
    In the most time, you will need specialists to match the demands for illiteracy and boredom, but they increase unhappiness and its very likely, that their pure yields are too low to decrease the unhappiness to the same degree as you get unhappiness. The city should get happier in general, cause they get more educated and have a better cultural life, but instead, they get unhappier, which is illogical.
    The fact that each category (distress, poverty,...) is limited in its maximum based on city size, leads to such weird situations, that solving completely the distress issues (in real world, all people have now work and enough food), sometimes didn't make the city happier. Instead the unhappiness can now appear as illiteracy or boredom, which were former hidden, cause unhappiness can't go over total pop or the category limit. This makes solving boredom issues first the best solution to get less unhappiness, which is absolutely irrational. From a realistic view, no matter how bad the situation is in a city, if I am able to give more people work and food, they simply can't be as unhappy as before.

    Also Distress is in it self weird. It makes people happier, if they generate more food, even if they already generate much more than they need. But they don't care about it, if you bring down the surplus close to zero by switching citizens to specialists. Harvest more than you can eat, yeah! Take everything away close before you are starving, who cares! :lol:
    I also don't see any real world correlation for the empire modificator. I understand, that it is there for limiting expansion. But it's simply weird to combine a pure game mechanic element into the aspect which tries to reflect the real world. Why should I get unhappier if some of my own people settle a new city and peacefully expand the nation I life in. Do I really have to eat more, if Poland would be still the territory of Germany? What would then happen with people in Russia? Is that the reason why they drink so much Vodka? :crazyeye:
    I think with only 2 of the happiness buildings in each of your core/annexed cities would enable you to get over 50% happiness and didn't get hit by the penalties is a reasonable target I would try to reach.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020 at 5:05 PM
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I believe the intention of specialists is to always be a "cost" to the city, in the form of unhappiness. I agree there is a lot of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" in terms of yields vs specialists. That said, if you we wanted to model more the reality that the world became more specialized over time, you could perhaps add in an urbanization reduction at a certain tech point.

    Emperor Modifiers can be explained in a number of ways, at base its the simple notion that the large a country is, the more unwieldy it can be in performing acts its citizens desire. Historically this was the simple fact that larger countries were harder to control and organize. Inevertantly, corruption begin to spread and eat at the cracks. Rome is a good example of this, the country became larger and larger, and more unwieldy over time.

    In more modern times, I will use the US (my own country) as an example. The US currently has a lot of deep political divisions, part of which stem from our diverse geography (aka large territory) which creates a very different way of life for various groups. As such, it can be hard to agree on what to do at a federal level, and policies designed to support one area are often seen to diminish resources for another.... creating discontent.

    Now of course I am greatly simplifying the causes...but it is a way to understand how to "flavor" the penalty.



    I still wonder how much CS benefits influence happiness. For example, the food bonus to all cities in reducing distress, and the chanceries big bonus to production....meaning that a large number of CS allies could reduce distress in every single one of your cities. The wire service later on provides a very large bonus to culture and/or science...my guess is its neutral on whether you have lots of allies or friends, but would likely heavily penalize someone who hasn't maintained a lot of friendships over all.
     
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  7. Histomen

    Histomen Chieftain

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    Salty af. Game was going so well too even with defensive pacts with both of them they declared war on me? It seems like they declared war on baylon which in turn made me go to war with them or something? idk so sad the game ended like this.
    Do defensive pact not block out people from going to war with you or?
     

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  8. Nightmare Dusk

    Nightmare Dusk Chieftain

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    A defensive pact is if either of you get war declared on, the other person will declare war on the person declaring war on thier defensive pact partner
     
  9. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I'm surprised to hear not wanting to build Refineries. I usually find the hammers pay off in terms of factories/seaports. I guess I play on a slower speed though, so perhaps there's more time to build things.
     
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  10. glider1

    glider1 Deity

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    Recycling centers were key in my Communitas game for the lack of aluminium
     
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  11. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    Check the civ he's playing as.
     
  12. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Haha good point.
     
  13. glider1

    glider1 Deity

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    Finished a great game on this version king/quick/small/communitas. Super solid version this one, reliable no crashes. Love how the endgame has a nice range of well balanced options and engagement with an AI that is actively playing. The happiness system is a living breathing thing I'm totally fine with it. I don't have conceptual problems understanding that big empires will be suffering from diminishing returns to happiness even when they are at their peak. Any way I don't see the system as one thing. At the local level it is needs based, at the empire level it is administrative capacity.

    The AI was defensively very good. I did a late game vassal of a weak India. It was able to hold me off on land for a good amount of time and loved how it engaged my navy as I tried to do simultaneous land/sea attack. It actually pushed my navy back into retreat with a coordinated fleet forcing me to have to finish it off the slow way holding the front line and waiting for airlifts and paratroopers. Felt like playing a human. It continued to research and upgrade all through the offensive. An AI that can do multiple things at the same time is a dream not seen for me since Civ4 better AI.

    Diplomacy was also very good. Loved how the AI was trying to take down the Spanish run away and then had to adjust to me rising to global prominence by re-aligning the relationships. I have disabled defense pacts with a hack though. They need to only happen in very specific cases or else it kills the dynamism too often for my taste.

    The communitas map is the best map script I've played on even better than perfect world was in civ4. So many ways to configure it. Configuring it for an empty continent and colonial expansion is totally viable with an AI that knows how to colonize.
     
  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So one I have found pretty consistently in this version with Communitas_79 (and my map settings are generally standard starts). The barbarian activity is a marked increase from what I have seen before, I would say about 50%-75% more barb activity in general than what I was used to previously:

    1) Barbs camps appear frequently, and tend to encircle your initial city. As such, you tend to see a lot of barbs early from all sides.

    2) Barbarian AI seems to have gotten an upgrade, and is much more "insidious" than it once was. If I move units to attack one barb camp, invariably barbs from another camp will pick that exact moment to attack from a different side. Barbarian units have gotten exceptionally good at finding weak spots, especially once horseman and skirmishers are out. They will dance around your base, picking off a pillage here or there, stalling or stealing workers....just generally making a completely a** of themselves.

    3) Barbarians seem to tech quicker than I am used to. I am seeing Horseman and Skirmishers out before I often have spearmen (assuming progress type starts), which can be quite the challenge.

    4) Though I am seeing a lot of barbs, its not the "unbeatable swarms" you see every so often on a map. Its more of a tactical game, than just banging your head with your few units against 7 barb units that have just swarmed your capital, so that is quite nice.


    Now all of these are not inherently "bad". Generally it means I've had to update my build orders, I pretty much build 3 warriors as standard fare now after Shrine and Monument is done. This gives me a 4 warrior + pathfinder to work with. I send 3 warriors to a close camp, I find 2 warriors or even 1 warrior and 1 spearmen get stalled too quickly (aka you attack the camp, the camp basically always spawns a barb, you are too weak to finish the camp....it becomes a game of healing and tactics, and often the camp will spawn a new barb by then. But with 3 units you can pop the camp in 1 round, preventing new unit spawns). The remaining warrior stays at home to guard the workers and TRs...with the scout serving as mobile protection. Generally I'll add another warrior as more terrain gets more developed just to give me the coverage I need. I've reduced the amount of archers I make.... the barb horsemen have gotten very good at sniping them off.

    I've noticed that my expansion speed has slowed down, but in general I've noticed that for the AI as well (whether that's purely the barbs or a combination of other factors)...so it all balances out nicely. Probably the biggest difference is it does give a bump to Authority play.... there has not been a map I have played in my last 5 runs that I didn't consider a beautiful barb feeding ground for Authority.

    Again, this is not a critique, but observation.... it has definately taken some getting used to but its a fresh way to play compared to how I was doing things previously.
     
  15. stii

    stii Prince

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    I have noticed more barbs too but I do wonder if the AI expanding more slowly is the cause rather than a symptom. The camps can't pop up within sight so if the AI has units everywhere there are none.

    I would suggest if you are having trouble with barbs to use those warriors to bully a CS then upgrade them all to spears
     
  16. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So this was a failed game that I am abandoning, but its a good highlight. I am probably (and by that I mean absolutely) beating the poor dead horse at this point, but if I have a datapoint might as well present it.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-11-23_12-46-39.png


    So Morocco is always a good barometer for the happiness system for a few reasons.

    • The UI of Morocco provides a lot of yields and is very ubiquitous for each city (usually 4-6 of them per city). So you expect (all other things being equal) that Morocco's Yields per Pop would be higher than a base civ.
    • A focus on Culture and Production over Science. Morocco's UI provides a culture focus instead of a science kit, and as science promotes unhappiness this should help us. Further, Moroccan cities tend to have high hammers and low food (against because of their UI), so you should get more infrastructure and less growth.... again a good happiness combination.

    This is a long winded way of saying that Morocco tends to be one of the happiestwide civs you can play. If Morocco can't stay happy while going wide, its hard to imagine many others civs being able to do it. And yet....once again drowning in the throes of unhappiness. So what went wrong?

    1) Did I over expand? So I currently have 9 cities, a decently high number, but 3 other AI civs also have 9 cities, so I don't seem to be expanding beyond the baseline.
    2) Not enough workers? My workers are currently filling in the crap tiles on my cities, all of the major land has been developed.
    3) Did I get weird policies? Standard Progress + Statecraft
    4) Did I build tons of units instead of building buildings? Based on my supply, I have a decent ish army, but nothing large. I have one city making troops at the moment (and since basically the whole world is at war with me, this seems prudent)
    5) Did I overgrow? I do have some decently high food cities (Fes, Menkes, and Sale have strong food areas). So was actually working my lakes and farms wrong play? I even (though I hate to do it) turned off growth in all of my cities for 10 turns to try and cope with the last bought of unhappiness (I was at 26% at one point).
    6) Am I sucking this game? Looking at the scores, tech levels, and policy numbers... I'm pretty much smack in the middle.
    7) Do I simply not have enough luxs? So I did just get sanctioned, that's a big hit (one I could not avoid at the time, I committed all my votes, and the AIs just decided it was time for me to suffer). Based on the current numbers, I need 9 luxs to hit 50%. I lost 4 luxs, so though it would certainly help in keeping me out of the bucket....still not going to help me get to happy.


    So the only thing I can think of compared to my previous games that was different was the CS scenario. I got 2 CS allies early, lately I've been able to get 4-5 quickly. It was a combination of limited CS access, but more that Siam was actually competitive with them. Normally I find AIs dont' become CS competitive until Renaissance, but Siam starts that earlier (which makes sense for their civ kit). So is that the missing link.... I need a large amount of CSs in order to be happy?

    Games like this I just feel so frustrated by the system because it feels like I have such limited control over it. We can say "well build more".... but I am a building peacenik type player, that's not a problem. I build buildings because I like building buildings...I don't need the system to tell me to do that, I am investing all of my gold (I am not even buying land or units much this game) and building as fast as my little heart can go. I just cannot make my cities cooler fast enough.

    This is why I actually really like public works, and I have a controversial view that I wish it was the core of the happiness system as opposed to the expected "emergency button". I would love if public works was the foundation of the system, if most buildings didn't do a thing for unhappiness.... but the public works kicked it in the face hard. I would love if expanding wide simply required a strong commitment to public works over normal building.... that's a trade off I can respect and decide if I wish to do it. This is the aspect I really miss from vanilla, that you have these buildings that are tailored for the problem.... you need happiness, you build this building, you get happiness...return to your regularly scheduled gaming. Instead its normally a whole lot of buildings that "say" they help unhappiness, but really most of the time you are just trading one unhappiness for another....constantly drudging against a yoke you cannot get under, and don't always understand. And when you finally get back into the sun, one of your city grows, adds like 5 more unhappiness (or more!) and your back in the trenches again.

    The happiness system has its upsides...but after many many years playing under it, I still think on the whole, its got more negatives than positives.
     
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  17. Casworon

    Casworon Prince

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    I'm also wondering if CS play should really be expected. Shouldn't order civs prefer to not play the CS game at all and instead absorb them into their empire?
    If the happiness system makes playing the CS game mandatory is that really what we want?

    Also if we did replace the current happiness system. Replace it with what?

    I'm tempted to say that I would focus the system more on public works and less on other things. So the dynamic is, sure you can expand. But it means you will have to dump precious production into this building all over your empire, rather than anything useful. For this to work though public works would have to have some growth/population cost aswell or wide would still be exponentially stronger
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020 at 2:45 PM
  18. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I noticed this in my games as well. I think it's because the AI gets a tech spike around that time and the units the barb camps produce depend on what techs players have.

    You seem to be at war with pretty much everyone :|. That is a very difficult position to be happy in! I daresay that if you had access to the luxuries they could trade you - especially Indonesia - your happiness would be significantly higher. You say you lost 4 luxes from being sanctioned, but you have enough income to buy luxuries at a high price if you really need them. You should be able to get at least 6 from that group.

    I'm also surprised that again you don't seem to have explored a lot of the map. given you have access to Explorers at this point in the game. It's likely there are other city-states out there, and they're often helpful. Not to mention that you get free happiness from discovering world wonders!
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020 at 3:16 PM
  19. glider1

    glider1 Deity

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    You have become intimidated by the happiness system. The problem isn't the happiness system but the consequences of a rebellion are too stiff which has psyched you out. You could actually keep playing but not in your current state of mind. I modded the game so that when a city flips it becomes a city state and you get a temporary alliance with it. So you get time to re-consolidate after a rebellion either to continue the alliance or let it slip and reconquest the CS when you are ready. So there can even be benefits in allowing a rebellion to happen. I think at the moment when a rebellion happens a city can flip to your neighbor which can be too stiff a punishment.
     
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  20. Casworon

    Casworon Prince

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    I agree with that point. Is there a way for it to rebel into a barbarian city for example? Would allow for more recapture potential
     
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