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New Patch First Impressions

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by CraigMak, Dec 11, 2014.

  1. CraigMak

    CraigMak The Borg

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
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    1,058
    Alright, I have now played a few games of the new patch and definitely found the game to be drastically changed. Some things for the better, some for the worse.

    The Good:
    -Trade Route Nerf: This was good, now everything else in the game is more relevant. Land, City Placement, Getting Workers all now actually matter. The way they function is still a bit odd and pretty strong. Can't they function in a simple, understandable manner???

    -Free Affinity Nerf: This is good because affinity was way too strong.

    -Slav & Franco Nerf: Very Good because they were both broken. They both however are total garbage now and need changed to be made interesting.

    -Health System Revamp: It's very good that negative health is now more detrimental however there does need to be better ways to manage health other than biowell spam and prosperity.

    The Bad:
    -Level 4 affinity units have been nerfed into mediocrity. The change here is drastic and has massive effects on game play. With no strong units it is now nearly impossible to attack each other. Cities are far too strong in comparison to the units offered by the game. Or rather defensive buildings are now far too strong. This has caused the game to be a boring simcity fest. All games I played resulted in people leaving because they knew they couldn't do anything to each other.

    Before I said they were too strong but this change is too drastic. Also, they didn't think about the fact that they were the only units capable of doing real damage to cities which can easily have a strength of 50 - 80+ in the early game.

    -African Union Buff: They are a bit too strong. The culture is a bit out of hand.
     
  2. Halbbruder

    Halbbruder Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2014
    Messages:
    387
    I agree mostly with you, OP, but could you tell me what the free affinity nerf is?

    Here is my pros and cons of it:

    pros:
    - Trade routes are not so crucial but now, stations are arguably better to trade with especially with alternative markets.
    - Health system has more penalties and loosens penalties for low negative health (around -1 to -10). However...(see cons)
    - some affinity quests are fixed where you couldn't build the building you needed because you didn't have the resource nearby.
    - early zerging is nerfed.
    - Brazilia UA is a bit better.

    Cons:
    - affinity quests are largely crap now. This makes science even more important. Perhaps this was done to further delay early victories.
    - level 4 unique affinity units may have been nerfed too much. I'd say increase their strength by around 2-4 points each.
    - With health, you can still get away with lots of negative health if you have a huge empire. I would recommend reinstating the combat penalty for negative health from civ 5 but instead it only increases after around -20 or -30 health and its max penalty should be around 25%.
    - AU's UA is way too good. Limit to first 5 cities and it's fine.
    - Transcendence victory might not have been nerfed enough.

    Things that need to be added but weren't:
    - stations still can't defend themselves adequately and their quests are largely crap. To kill 2 birds with 1 stone, I recommend a station quest where they request some defence materials. The station basically asks you to donate 2 artillery units to them, regardless of their level. To do this, you have to drop the units off adjacent to the station that offered the quest. Like emancipation victory, they'll be a button that says "commit unit". Station then gains city bombardment and more defence points (around 20). In return, trade with the station is permanently increased and you gain either lump science, energy, culture or production per city depending on the station.
    - Except the far base one/fort barca affinity quest, you can't make peace with stations!
    - There should also be an indicator for players telling them how long a station will remain before it leaves.
    - There should also be an ability to position where you want your stations so they don't stifle your early expansion.
    - Stations don't really spawn after mid-game and they should.
    - delay the affinity level requirement to build the affinity wonders to around 16. Add 1 more affinity level up bonuses if need be.
    - Emancipation victory was not nerfed. Add 500-1000 more strength to win.
    - Some building quests still need to be reviewed. Ultrasonic fence is one example.
    - Wonders need to be more significant.
     
  3. Lucius_

    Lucius_ King

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2012
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    806
    I agree with most of your thoughts.

    Trade routes are a bit odd now. Would be nice to understand how they work.

    Health is fine now. I'd be curious to know what other ways to manage health did you have in mind.

    Affinity 4 units are really weak, I agree. Not sure if I agree with the rest of your thoughts there. I've never seen anything higher than 40-50 str cities in what I'd call early game. Which, btw, can be taken down with gunners.
     
  4. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    Location:
    New Zealand
    First I have seen someone say cities are too strong...

    I think they need to do a proper unit and city balance pass.
     
  5. silvertuerk

    silvertuerk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2014
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    57
    Multiplayer did not crash once. Apollo AI cities were conquerable before Affinity unit. Human vs Human we did not test, yet.
     
  6. CraigMak

    CraigMak The Borg

    Joined:
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    The free affinity nerf is that quests are not giving a full affinity point anymore. At least that's what I experienced. I haven't gotten a progenitor ruin yet so that remains to be seen.

    Also, affinity quests don't seem to be coming up as often as they used to and do so in a balanced manner for everyone.
     
  7. CraigMak

    CraigMak The Borg

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    I think that the health from trade routes policy in Industry needs to be buffed since autoplants don't give you trade routes anymore. Might's ability to get health is very bad.

    My experience has been that gunners do not take out cities of strength 50+ with any efficiency. It requires you to get a major surround on the city with no opposition for several volleys. This is not realistic in a multiplayer setting. A human player will not let you get into this kind of position. They will just 1 hit the fragile gunners with their city and melee units.

    It is very easy to get 50 - 80 strength on a city very early in the game. All you need is a rocket battery and regular wall building. Then the building quests can up the strength even more.

    Without any units of 40 strength or any ranged units that dish out high damage, you can't take these out at all unless the player has no army what so ever.
     
  8. CraigMak

    CraigMak The Borg

    Joined:
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    Yes, I must tip my hat to the improvement in stability. They did a good job there.

    A fast ranger or gunner rush is definitely possible if the player has no defensive structures. The problem is that human players who believe they might be in danger can easily get up defensive structures and increase the strength of their cities dramatically.

    Gunners will not do the job, nor will battle suits, CNDR etc.., Nothing can take out a strength 50 - 80 city in the mid or early game. Then by the time you can get units strong enough to do the job, cities have a strength of 120... It's a losing race for the would be attacker.
     
  9. Manannan

    Manannan Prince

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    Jun 30, 2012
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    I really feel like this can't be stressed enough. They took the thing that was supposed to make the military part of the game unique and interesting and they nerfed it into the ground to the point where it's not even worth pursuing. Why even bother having unique units for each affinity if it's going to hurt the player to bother using them, and generic units are way better? It's also frustrating that they can't seem to make up their mind about whether or not they want cities to be weaker than in CiV, and sieges to be more fluid. I don't care which direction you go Firaxis, just pick one and stick with it.

    I also disagree with trade route nerfs being good. It's nice that they aren't quite as OP anymore and that the game's pace has slowed down as a result, but making them work so counter-intuitively is more frustrating than positive. They're also still quite capable of being OP if you set them up in certain ways, so mission only kinda accomplished on that front.

    Booooo Firaxis, fix this non-sense!
     
  10. Gamewizard

    Gamewizard Emperor

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    Jan 24, 2011
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    The affinity units are fine strength wise, IMO, but they need more unique promotions to make them more interesting.

    I like trade routes much better now...just having previous route at the top makes a big difference. I still think trade depot should give 1 trade route and autoplant give the second, with perhaps another late game building added to a weak tier 3 tech that gives a third.

    I like how strong station trade routes are now, especially when you take the industry virtue that adds gold to the route.
     
  11. Manannan

    Manannan Prince

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    Oh, right, I forgot to check that; do station trade routes still give what I'm assuming are broken amounts of cash if you take the industry virtue to boost energy returns from them? I'm assuming it's a bug when I see a return of 30+ energy from those station trade routes, but I haven't tested that since the patch.
     
  12. Gamewizard

    Gamewizard Emperor

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    At turn 200, a tier 3 culture station is giving me +1 production, +10 culture, +19 energy.

    I suppose an energy station would give around 29 energy, but you wouldn't get the culture. I would rather have the culture.

    These values seem fine to me, considering I invested culture to get that high energy amount and since any sponsor could trade with the station.
     
  13. PyreStarite

    PyreStarite Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Starship Destination
    Hello all, My name is Pyre and this is my first post and sorry to have to do this to you guys but it's a rant (Which all people need to do to get an uncomfortable weight off their shoulders) So please at least listen and not beat up on me too hard.

    Start off, I've been playing civ sense civ4 when my cousin introduced the series to me and I played civ5 and am now pushing my way thru civBE.

    I've started trying to learn this new release by starting on Mercury difficulty and trying to get specific victories. The first game I completed and won was on a small atlantean map with KP. The only issues I had were finding space for the Refugees and the Occasional denounce from Polystralia because I was on the island next to him. The second game I completed and won was on a tiny terran world as ARC. Polystralia landed on the north side of the continent and early game sent a small army to try and take either my capital or my new outpost, but lost everything as he ran around my territory like a headless chicken as I shot rocket batteries at him and smashed his army to bits putting him very far behind. In the peace treaty he handed me one of his encroaching cities and never heard from him again, allowing me easy transcendence victory.

    I then cranked up the difficulty to Moderate and tried for a Frano Massive Protean map Contact victory to add to my achievement collection. Once again, Polystralia lands right on top of me and about mid-game after picking on some of the other civs sent an actually impressive army my way right toward my capitol, but was able to fend him off using only my rocket batteries and a army 4 times smaller than his (Thank you Ballistics) pushing away The initial large wave, 2 small waves, and than one last wave before I logged off to try and clear my head.

    I watched some civ videos to see what other people did, Learning some things like good strategies and watching others get their capitol creamed by great worms. With my new horde of knowledge I wanted to try these things for myself and Started a new Standard Protean map with Franco. I remember getting artists to really feel the power of their UA and Raw Materials for that extra science point. The initial starting area wasn't too bad, but there was a silly amount of floatstone in the area that made it seem Purity was the obvious choice to go this round. It was a little mountain heavy and the shores were a little thin, but I thought it was charming. I start moving my scout to pick up a pod I spotted (Thank you Retro Thrusters) and literally on turn three, the worst thing that could have happened...happens

    Polystralia touches down Eight tiles away from where I landed...
    Eight tiles!
    EIGHT!

    The Aliens constantly standing in front of you was one thing, but now I know the game was messing with me! I instantly logged off and needed to rant.

    So that's my first post. TY for enduring that.
    -Love Pyre
     
  14. Manannan

    Manannan Prince

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    I'm not referring to when it's working properly as you described, I'm referring to when a station that shouldn't be giving energy is giving well over 30 energy that I can't explain by way of buildings or virtues. I've observed it semi-regularly (in retrospect I should have made a thread about it in the bug report forum, whoops) and I think it has something to do with the industry virtue proccing too many times (possibly from AIs trading with the station?). Guess I'll have to investigate next time I play a game.
     
  15. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    The only time I've noted Stations giving me more than 30 energy per turn is when they're tier 3 Energy Stations.
     
  16. Kutuzov

    Kutuzov Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2006
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    362
    Hi. Welcome to the boards. Since you've been playing since Civ IV, you'll probably recall that AI civs occasionally start in very close proximity to the human player. In my last Civ IV game, the Vikings were located about 8 tiles to the north of my starting position, and in my last Civ V game, I met Venice on my 2nd turn. If I'd sent my warrior east instead of south, I might even have met him on turn 1.

    I like to have a bit of time to explore and expand a bit before I encounter another civ but I guess you just have to play with the hand you're given. Or start a new game ;) (I took down the Vikings in the Classical Era in Civ IV and restarted the Civ V game)
     
  17. Bkeela

    Bkeela Warlord

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    Location:
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    Prior to the patch I found adequate challenge to the game due to such random circumstances. Yes, if you chose ideal seeding picks, and enjoyed a nice start location, Apollo was easy to accomplish, but otherwise you could find yourself in a nearly hopeless situation. I experienced some situations, like a small map surrounded by hostile neighbours, that I would have liked to have seen the expert players who complained the game was so easy it was broken, get themselves out of.

    But now with the patch...I'm not even interested anymore.
     
  18. TLHeart

    TLHeart King

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2005
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    the game pace is slower for the first 50 turns on standard, but I still win around turn 250. after the 3rd city, trade routes become a powerful force, if you have figured out that the junk city gives the greatest benefit to your other cities.

    Last game, my 9th city, founded where it only had 2 food, 1 production, 1 population, my cities sending trade routes to it were getting 5 food, and 10 production... and it was getting NOTHING. Sure did boost up my other 8 cities.

    The changes to the Trade routes really accomplished NOTHING.
     
  19. liv

    liv Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,394
    Liked
    - that the level four units are not too powerful. Perhaps they could be more upgrades sooner but I do not feel that the game is over as soon as battlesuits arrive.
    -Health seems OK.
    -liked the change to the purity explorer
    -less powerful trade. i can live with the numbers

    concerns
    -Still do not like to have to assign trade routes. Tedious in the last part.
    -Do not like the change to the Franco-Iberian faction. they should have some culture added to that advantage.
    -Spying seems very difficult. It may have been better way to end the exploit than just taking intrigue away from networking.
    -I liked the later quests. So missing them but do not really want to get to affinity 13 too soon.
    -do not really see any significant change to the aliens.
    -don't really see that he victory notification is better on the Victory screen

    Hope to see
    -more diplomacy - it does not exist
     
  20. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    Why? I can only assume that all your other routes were of less value? In general, new cities under the new patch should generate less powerful routes than optimized and developed cities. 5/10 is good on the production, but kind of middling on the food. Founding that city should have impacted your other cities in no way whatsoever if you optimized them right.

    EDIT: except for the 2 additional routes the new city will send out that will not help it whatsoever.

    FUN Trivia: Internal Trade Routes were a powerful source of income in both Civ IV and Civ V. Right now, they were probably stronger than the ETRs output, and there were usually more of them. The key difference is that they were automated, not manually assigned.
     

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