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new player goals

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by SneakyJes, Jan 4, 2011.

  1. SneakyJes

    SneakyJes Chieftain

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    I'm trying to improve my starting game by working on city specialization and city management to speed up. Are there common goals I should work toward that would show me if I'm getting things done? For example, have this many cities by this date, if rushing, have your first war done by this date, have this tech researched by this date?

    My goal is to consistently win on Noble, being aggressive.

    Thanks
     
  2. Sian

    Sian Chieftain

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    a (very) general target is 6 decent/good cities at 0AD, no matter what

    the most general target on techs is Liberalism by 700-1300AD (the lower difficulity the later the time)
     
  3. Kid R

    Kid R Chieftain

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    Destroy 6 AIs by 2050!

    But since the quality of land varies and the tech-savviness of the AIs varies too the dates can vary quite a bit. When I started I used to try and always be at the top of the scoreboard and then I knew I was doing OK.
     
  4. Windsor

    Windsor Flawless

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    Here's is a couple of goals:

    - When you settle the capital, identify the food resource. Research the corresponding tech and build worker first (Workboat if seafood)
    - Never build any settlers if you are below 1.5 workers per city
    - If a city is working 2 or more unimproved tiles, that city must build a worker.
    - The 2nd city must ALWAYS have a food resource in the first ring
    - Get a great scientist before 1000BC
    - Get at least 6 cities by 1AD
    - You are not allowed to build any ancient world wonders
    - You are allowed to build one classical era world wonder
    - You are allowed to build up to three world wonders in total.
    - Don't build any religious buildings(temples, monastries)
    - Don't build theaters, colosseums or aqueducts before renaissance
    - Only build one market, one grocer and one bank before industrial era
    - Don't build courthouses before the city maintenance is >8GPT
     
  5. WelshGandalf

    WelshGandalf Chieftain

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    Some good tips there, not sure I'd go along with 100% of Windsor's 100% of the time though.

    I also hear 100bpt (science Beakers Per Turn) by 1AD as a target. I've never reached it myself but I know if I'm at 75 or more by then, I'm doing fairly well.
     
  6. cracked

    cracked Wierdo.

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    There's no hard and fast rule really. You won't be able to trade so much because the AI techs kinda slow really and that's the main reason why teching takes longer. Typically on BTS, on noble

    The AI will gain construction around the 100th turn and will typically have horse back riding as well. It's a good idea to have horsebackriding yourself on bts to neutralise their stacks by the flanking promotion.
    It will normally have feudalsim by the 150th turn. It may have guilds and civil service as well or by the 200th at the latest, but this largely depends upon how well it's doing. At this point you can expect to see significant daylight between those teching well and those falling on their behinds. The AI will nearly always go for engineering, so b-lining gunpowder for before this point can give you a strong advantage. Military science and military tradition by this point can normally win you the game easily, simply because of the land you'll be capable of taking. You won't even necessarily need steel.
    irrespective of their techs, I would expect a human player to start pulling ahead after the 100th turn unless their starting position and/or play was really awful and be leading so much by the 200th that tech trading won't help you even slightly. Hell, it's unusual for the AI to win the liberty race before the 200th turn.
    Gunpowder is pretty standard for the strong AI techers between the 200th turn and 250th turn. very occasionally it will have rifling too. It only seems to better this if it has a really freak starting position and if the civ is a strong techer anyway (mansa musa, Huayna Capac, Zara Yaqob sometimes, Gandhi).

    A human player who knows what they're doing even ever so slightly, should be more than capable of producing infantry by the 250th turn, (possibly sooner if you're really good) the 300th if things aren't going quite so well. At which point it becomes something of a turkey shoot. The AI nearly always opts for physics and communism regardless of what you're doing and often doesn't get assembly line until the 350th turn. Some of the AI won't even have that until the 400th turn, if ever, though this is rare.

    If the AI is beating you on tech, it's usually because they haven't expanded half as much as you or have neglected their military, which usually means you can beat them with vast numbers of weaker units and cunning play.

    This is the main reason why people with even limitied experience of the game can defeat noble despite less than optimum play. The best value of playing the level in terms of experience is not restarting even when given a really poor starting position and seeing what tactics work with different civs and leaders. Or just because you find it fun.
     
  7. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    100 bpt at 1AD is something to aim for. It's easy to do if you leverage financial or philosophical or industrious for pyramids or great lighthouse, or creative for early libraries or ...
    the point is even if you miss the goal, it's still a good goal, and the tools to reach the goal are numerous.
     
  8. michmbk

    michmbk Chieftain

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    I'm always more concerned if I have that many beakers at 1 AD, because it means I might not have claimed enough land. If I've shot out settlers and claimed 10-12 cities, then 100 beakers at 100% means losing about 50 gold a turn too.

    On noble, I'd say the most important thing is make sure you have enough workers (1-1.5 per city depending on the map...maybe closer to 2 if lots of jungle), specialize your cities properly (focusing on cottages, production, or great people), make sure to not work unimproved tiles (goes in line with the workers..), make sure your next tech makes sense (unlocks a resource, wonder, building or unit that's useful or represents good trade bait) and claim good city sites (with resources, flood plains...).

    If you're doing all these things, whether you have 6 cities or 12 cities at 1 AD, or 100 beakers or 50 beakers, you're going to be in good shape on noble. Everything is so map dependent it's hard to really have defined measurables to try to achieve.
     
  9. cracked

    cracked Wierdo.

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    Michmbk makes a very good point here. Meeting certain economic or technological benchmarks and saying "ok, that's enough for now" is missing the point and probably leads to poor play. You can end up limiting yourself to goals that are too conservative (which means your not using the most of the territories you've seized) or too ambitious (which means you could end up believing you're far weaker in comparison to your opponents than you actually are).

    Goal orientated strategies for aggresive play would be better applied in a strategic context by deciding which opponent you wish to eliminate, deciding what tactic you'll use to do that, achieving that intention, then deciding what (or who) to do next.

    Whereas in terms of your economy, you should be aiming to make the most of the land in your posession and continually improve. While technologically, you should be aiming to develop in a manner that helps you to achieve those goals or improve and strengthen your economy.
     
  10. yanner39

    yanner39 Chieftain

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    @Windsor

    This is a great list. Can you elaborate on the last, bolded point? Just your seasoning behind the >8GPT. Why 8 and not 5 (like some have suggested). Is it because of the hammer value of courthouses? Does the ORG trait change this?
     
  11. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    Understand the difference between commerce and gold, and how they are tied together via the slider (as are culture, research and espionage).

    A granary is the best building in the game.

    Learn how to and when to use great person points. How to generate them faster. One example is to get a library early in the game and run 2 scientists to create your first Academy.

    Learn where to settle cities (hint: try to put food resources in your first 8 tiles i.e. first ring of a newly settled city so that you can improve it right away).

    The 1.5 worker/city rule of thumb isn't set in stone. More important is having 1~2 workers ready to be sent with new cities to be settled. You want every new city to have 2~3 tiles to work ASAP.

    Learn how to manage your workers, do not automate them.

    Learn to avoid crutches, especially some wonders. Once you've done this, reinsert them in your play *when* they don't force your hand to compromise too much.

    Shadow some games posted on the forums, Noble's Club is a good starting place, there are quite a few participants and shadow games are posted from just about every difficulty level.

    Learn about diplomacy: how to befriend, manipulate leaders (check the AI behavior link in my signature).

    IMO, these are way more important game concepts than giving yourself artificial goals like '6 cities by 1AD'. On some maps, this is impossible. On some maps, you can get 6 cities by 1000BC and will want 12 by 1AD... it depends!

    You might have to do some reading on the strategy articles subforum to understand some of these but they are the base concepts of civ.

    There is way more, but try to understand the game first :)

    If you already know all these, then you're not new.
     
  12. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    What it generally means is that you have more important things to build than a CH. If the maintenance is really high, then you should consider a CH earlier so that the city becomes profitable faster. Otherwise, getting that Forge etc. is usually more important than a handful of gold and some EP.

    ORG does raise the value of CH quite a bit because you can 2-whip them so fast.

    As any rule, this isn't set in stone. If you have the hammers, build them ASAP. It's usually tied-in with the 'keep your city small (hence maintenance as well) via the whip while building infrastructure' motto.
     
  13. SneakyJes

    SneakyJes Chieftain

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    Thank you all for all the advice. I can see the reasoning behind map dependent goals rather than set goals based on time.

    @ Kossen
    Having enough workers is never a problem in my games, sometimes I feel I have too many. Also I'm improved my city placement which has given huge improvements in my game. I'm also getting better at city management in order to product or grow when I need it.

    Diplomacy, wonder use, and great people are definitely a weakness for me. I never seem to have anyone has a friend in my games. Also, as the game goes on, I'm not great at researching in a good order.

    I definitely have some weakness in the basics of the game.
     
  14. Windsor

    Windsor Flawless

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    Organized does change things a bit, but I wanted a straight forward and trait-neutral list.

    Courts at 5GPT doesn't save much, and it will never be a mistake worth mentioning to delay them but there is a very good chance that you have other things which are significantly better to build. 8GPT signals that courts are a building you can build much later than you get the tech that unlocks them, it's a building for high-maintenance cities and not a building you should spam everywhere.
     

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