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Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Brankin, May 18, 2016.

  1. Brankin

    Brankin Chieftain

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    May 18, 2016
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    I am a new player, and I enjoy playing Babylon, I cant really figure out how to keep my science up with keeping everything else reasonable. Especially faith/culture. Is it just me of a play more and learn from experience?
     
  2. Foundation Afro

    Foundation Afro Chieftain

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    Aug 6, 2015
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    Faith is less important, just because it's only going to indirectly help you. That's not to say ignore it, but if you're going to let any of those three slide, faith should be it. Culture can be a bit tough, because culture buildings only provide +2 regardless of era (later buildings don't give more). There are a few things you can do, if you're producing great works try to get the bonuses from great work buildings. Faith plays a part as well, if you get a religion. The best beliefs are things like Mosques that allow you to purchase faith buildings, which can provide good culture. Finally, keep in mind that each wonder provides +1 culture. Now, do not rely on this. Wonders aren't something you should build like crazy at the cost of infrastructure, especially if the AI might get them. The gold you get when beaten to a wonder is not worth the lost turns. However if you're going for a wonder anyway, remember that it will give +1 culture not shown with the yields.
     
  3. claudiupb

    claudiupb King

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    There are a lot of things to consider, starting with city placement, tech path, micromanagement, and other stuff like managing happiness. To sum it up a little, the most important yields are :c5food: and :c5production:

    You need :c5food: to grow in size, and each citizen also gives you :c5science: in addition to a new workable tile. So grow as big as your happiness allows you. If you play tall then the emphasize is surely on :c5food: because you want to grow as big as you can fast. On wide games however you will want to halt growth at some point because you can't afford the happiness so you will end up emphasizing :c5production: .
    Of course :c5production: is always important because you can't build anything if you don't have it and the more you have the more you can do. You need units, buildings, sometimes even a wonder. And you also need them before a certain milestone. :c5gold: can help if you lack :c5production:, but sometimes the ratio for rush buying is not very good (especially until late game) so a good hammer output is always strong.

    Prioritize tiles with these yields. Preferably you would want to work tiles with a minimum of 4 yields so you will need to do a little micromanagement. You should priorities bonus tiles, and of course improve them first. River farms are also very good, etc.

    For :c5culture: be sure to get your monuments up fast, and maybe get some culture out of a religion (like getting and buying Pagodas). Also you should ally as many cultural City States as you can. You should build and fill your Guilds with specialists as soon as possible (there are some exceptions, for example you should not be working Musicians Guild if you want to win by tourism).

    :c5faith: is important, but not that big of a deal, in the end you could use 3500 faith to buy something like one Great Engineer and 2 Great Scientist with it. If you want to buy 2 of each you need 5000 faith and if you want 3 of each you will need 1000 faith. If your game lasts about 300 turns or maybe even more, then even a 15 :c5faith:/turn output can be quite beneficial. And a 30 :c5faith:/turn output might as well be just as good as a 25 :c5faith:/turn output.

    If you want a big faith output, and you are of course going for a religion get a pantheon that gives faith if that matches your dirt but also build shrines and temples and eventually even grand temple if you have the hammers. You could also build a faith wonder like Borobudur to spread your religion fast and to get some direct faith per turn out of it. If you get 3 prophets you can plant one for the 6 :c5faith: and of course you can ally religious City States to get more faith.
     
  4. darkskies

    darkskies Warlord

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    When playing Babylon I always go for that first great scientist fast and plant it in the ground. It's been a long time since I played at the lower difficulty levels, but I think that would still apply to Babylon maybe not quite as obvious though. So bee line for Writing.

    Then if it looks like you have nasty neighbors, go those walls up. One thing though is you should have a military unit to protect your academy from stray barbarians (especially if you chose raging barbarians...not something I'd recommend to a beginner unless you've figured out the tricks to deal with barbs, then the money you get from them is very useful and then raging barbs actually make the game easier).
     
  5. Montezuma II

    Montezuma II Chieftain

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    Raging barbarians only increases the spawn rate of barbarian units, NOT barbarian camps. Raging barbs WON'T be beneficial financially, but it will help your units earn early xp quicker.
     
  6. darkskies

    darkskies Warlord

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    Sorry totally not my experience, when I play without Raging Barbs the camp spawn rate is way slower. Unless you can show me the code that says otherwise I won't believe it. I've played many, many games and the difference has always been quite obvious.
     
  7. komodowaran

    komodowaran Warlord

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    respawn rate is quicker on raging but not the amout of camps on the map
    so killing them ise useles on raging
     
  8. darkskies

    darkskies Warlord

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    Show me the scripts, vast experience says otherwise, or maybe I've just been real unlucky when I played with raging off (but I find it hard to believe). With raging on I get camps spawned left right and center and that just does not happen when it is off and the early game often gets boring because I have no camps to take.

    Also not sure what you mean killing is useless. If you take honor you get social points, and if you take a camp another will often soon replace it (except on small islands). Island, especially small island, maps can be different since there are often not that many places for barbs to build and they are often inaccessible when they are so no regeneration.

    I'm not the only one who often plays with raging barbs to earn more gold.
     
  9. Haphaz

    Haphaz Warlord

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    London, UK
    Plant first great scientist, lock in that tile for 8 Science. Beeline National College building, then university. Build as many observatories next to mountains. Go Rationalism and get the 2 science per specialist, get as many specialists as possible while balancing food growth. If all else fails, use spies :)
     
  10. Plumfairy

    Plumfairy Prince

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    Babylon & Poland are widely considered two of the most powerful civs. (There are two or three other civs that are also in this top tier.) Personally, I find Babylon the most powerful civ in the game, but others seem to prefer Poland. Either way, Babylon is pretty amazing.

    However, there are a couple considerations to be aware of when playing them:

    * You want to beeline straight for Writing to get that free scientist ASAP. All other technologies can wait. As soon as you get the scientist, create an Academy & work the Academy tile nonstop for the rest of the game. Generally it's best to plant the scientist on a non-river grassland so that the tile is food-neutral. (Each citizen eats 2 food per turn, so if a citizen works the Academy tile, he's feeding himself and thus he's neither helping the city to grow nor slowing it down. But he is giving you 8 science, which is *amazing*.)

    *Because one of the citizens of Babylon's capital is always working the Academy from very early on, Babylon is somewhat paradoxically a little slower than other civs to grow & build stuff. (Other civs can use *all* their capital citizens to either grow the city or work production tiles.) So although your science will be fantastic, you end up able to *do* slightly less than other civs. Consequently, I generally skip faith altogether with Babylon; I'm too busy just doing basic expansion & defensive military construction; I don't have time for shrines & temples.

    *Most people consider going full Tradition to be the easiest & most reliable way to play for most civs, but Liberty & Honor are both viable & fun as well. However, with Babylon, I *always* go full Tradition. Because your capital is slightly gimped (due to working the Academy all game), and also because I want my capital to grow ASAP so that I have additional citizens to work additional Academies a little later in the game, Tradition seems like a must-have for Babylon.

    *Finally, regarding culture, there's not too much you *can* do about culture generation in BNW. Most people just build Monuments (or get them free from Tradition) and call it a day; amphitheaters are only built if you're going for a cultural victory. A little later in the game allying with cultural city-states is very helpful, but if you don't get one of them, then you kinda just have to wait for Monuments to give you the culture you need.

    If I remember correctly, I believe folks here have already proven that raging barbs doesn't increase the rate at which camps spawn; only the rate of unit generation is (greatly) increased. It's in another thread, feel free to search for it. I can't remember if their proof involved actual game code or if they did extensive in-game testing. In any case, my vast experience agrees with the board consensus: raging barbs doesn't increase camp spawn rate. I play with raging barbs off about half the time, so I get to see the behavior of both settings fairly frequently.

    On the higher levels (Immortal & Deity), the main effect of barbs (raging or otherwise) isn't the gold; you don't get to capture *that* many camps, and at 25 gold per camp, you're not exactly raking it in from the barbs. Of course, if you're going honor, then the +culture is a major benefit. But if you're not going Honor, the most important effect (IMO) of the barbs is to capture workers and/or settlers, thus giving you another way to get free workers w/out having to build them (or buy them) yourself. Obviously, raging barbs provide this service better than non-raging ones. However, I believe the consensus is that raging barbs slows down humans more than the AI due to the AI's very large combat bonus & large army that they start the game with. Again, I'm speaking about the higher difficulty levels; on lower difficulty levels I have no idea whether humans or AI are hurt more by raging barbs.
     
  11. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    All very good points above.
    Yes, that is a settled fact.
    The Honor finisher also give gold from unit kills. But still you cannot run your economy from barb hunting. OTOH, you can run your economy from killing AI units! (Since at Immortal & Deity, the AIs spam units.)
     
  12. Plumfairy

    Plumfairy Prince

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    Sure, but by the time you get the Honor finisher, there are few, if any, barbarians left to kill.

    But that's fine; at that point the full Honor player should almost always be at war with an AI or city-state. Honor: making war very profitable since the Classical age.
     
  13. Chum

    Chum King

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    The 2 are not mutually exclusive. Barbarians simply spawn when there is nothing within sight of a particular tile. The only reason barbarians stop spawning late game is because of the city spam of all civs. By burning down all cities, you will once again get barbarian spawns in the razed territories.
     
  14. claudiupb

    claudiupb King

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    This might be an indirect effect of the raging barbs setting. Usually after I kill a barb camp early game, a new one spawns in a couple of turns. But if there is no eligible spot, then the barb camp cannot spawn. So the sooner the map is filled with cities the sooner the barb camps stop spawning at all.

    On lower difficulties (Emperor and below, sometimes even Immortal) the AI is severely crippled by the raging barbs, and will not expand as fast. This means that much of the land remains unsettled for quite a while, so you get more barb camps.
     
  15. claudiupb

    claudiupb King

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    Why not plant the academy on a cow or deer tile? You lose one hammer for not improving it but you won't need to "sacrifice" one citizen to work the academy since you would be working that tile anyway. Later on you will lose the extra yields that come with Fertilizer or Economics but that is really not such a big deal. Plus if it is a forested deer you get the instant chop, so some free hammers.
     
  16. Plumfairy

    Plumfairy Prince

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    That's actually what a lot of players suggest. A lot of the better players, in fact. But it bugs me to not be able to improve that cattle or deer, (I want that extra hammer, dammit!), plus it *really* bugs me to lost the late-game yield bonuses from Economics and/or Fertilizer, even though they're not that important. So I always prefer to use a tile that I won't really be able to use for a long long time: a non-river grassland.

    A word of warning about settling on the deer, though: not only do you get the instant chop (something which you might want to save until you're building the Oracle or the National College), but that tile will yield the underlying terrain type forevermore, rather than forest. Sometimes you want that, sometimes you don't. Just be aware of it.
     
  17. darkskies

    darkskies Warlord

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    Show me the code, then I'll believe, but again in my vast experience this is not true. It's always possible my games have been a statistical outlier but I need to see the code otherwise my experience proves otherwise.

    Edit:
    All I'm asking is to be pointed at the code, I'm sure not trolling. Anyway I came back because one thing did occur to me as a possibility and that is that since, especially early game, the AI and city states have such trouble contending with raging barbs maybe it gives them less time to take camps and so it seems there are more camps for me and hence more gold and more gold is why I play with raging on.
    Also apologies for going so far off topic and I won't post on this anymore here. If someone can point to the code just PM me please.
     
  18. beetle

    beetle Deity

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