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New plot types suggestions

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Fresol, Jun 7, 2017.

  1. Fresol

    Fresol Angry Halfling in Green

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    Recently Leoreth split mounted units into light and heavy cavalries and introduced a new promotion that gives combat bonus on open terrains, which in my opinion introduced a good timing for discussion on modifying the existing world map, plot types and terrains.

    I've always wanted to make suggestions on improving the world map to make it more historically and geographically correct. But changing the map means changing a lot of files, so to avoid the unnecessary work and the unwillingness to change caused by it let's first discuss on improving the plot types and terrains system. :)

    Here are my suggestions:

    New plot type: Mountain.
    The mountain plot type is almost indentical to the Hill plot type, but impassable to most military units and cannot be settled. Mountains can be worked on. (Improvements on mountains need a way to be destroyed though.)

    The good thing about the introduction of Mountain is that we can replace certain Peaks and Hills with Mountains to create strategic choke points, while not having to worry about too many Peaks destroying city yields.​

    Rename the plot type Grassland to Flatland.

    New plot type: Plateau.
    The Plateau plot type functions mostly like Flatland. It's conceptually more pleasing and gives mounted units historically and geographically correct battle fields. Suggestions on its other functions are welcome. I'm thinking about a small plateau-to-flatland attack bonus and/or flatland-to-plateau attack malus. Also an extra :move: cost for entering plateau from flatland is in order.

    Many Hills and Grasslands (plot type, not terrain) on current DoC map should be replaced by Plateaus.​
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
    1SDAN likes this.
  2. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Knoedel Imperator Satani Filius Augustus Nooborum

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    Thrre is literally no reason for any of this. Just give yields to peaks and rename them to mountains.

    What is the difference between a hill and a plateau supposed to be anyway?
     
    need my speed likes this.
  3. Fresol

    Fresol Angry Halfling in Green

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    Plateau is flat, while hills are... hilly. It didn't matter much until recently.

    And I'm not suggesting making all peaks passable.
     
  4. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Knoedel Imperator Satani Filius Augustus Nooborum

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    But you literally said you wanted to make mountains impassable, so there is no difference in that regard!
     
  5. Fresol

    Fresol Angry Halfling in Green

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    "... we can replace certain Peaks and Hills with Mountains to create strategic choke points, while not having to worry about too many Peaks destroying city yields".
     
  6. Fresol

    Fresol Angry Halfling in Green

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    The following picture shows what I meant by creating strategic choke points.
    Spoiler example of a historical choke point :

    As you can see, if these barb archers want to attack Beijing from Shenyang, they either need to attack the Shanhaiguan(mountain-sea-garrison) fort, or have to go all the way around and attack Beijing from the northwest. This is more historical and interesting than what the current map has to offer. And the new plot types enable us to better recreate these scenarios, by for example replacing these two peaks with mountains, and maybe replacing some hills in the north with plateaus. Speaking of which, I think entering from flatland to plateau should cost 2:move:.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
  7. Fresol

    Fresol Angry Halfling in Green

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    Another example is the following:
    Spoiler Eastern end of the silk roads :

    Between Jiayuguan and Lanzhou is the eastmost end of the silk roads, the well-known Hexi corridor. It was not at all represented by the current DoC map. But it should be completely obvious why such a corridor is important, as can be shown by this crudely modified map. There are three main silk roads at the eastern end, two of which are shown here, and they both go through the Hexi corridor. Also, the introduction of the plateau plot type allow mounted units to be the dominant force in this region, with only a few hills as exceptions.

    The plateau in the Tibet region is also needed, I think, to help them get rid of the barbs swordsmen (khampas on plateau receives strength bonus while swordsmen do not receive defense bonus). Also, the tiles NW and SE to the Tsaidam Basin can be replaced with mountains, and let khampas be able to pass through mountains. In this way Tibet has easier ways to acquire cities and this is also more historical! (Not more historical in the actual route they pass through, but in the actual cities and regions.)
     

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  8. Mxzs

    Mxzs Chieftain

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    On the Mountain thing, just so it's clear, which are you suggesting:

    1. Give Peaks yields, leave them impassable, and rename them Mountains.
    2. Keep Peaks (no yields, impassable) in the game, and add Mountains, which have yields but are also impassable.
     
  9. Fresol

    Fresol Angry Halfling in Green

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    Peaks remain peaks. Mountains are impassable (to most military units) hills, which otherwise work like hills (with minor differences maybe, e.g. roads can't be built? But mines can be built).
     
  10. Malchar

    Malchar Chieftain

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    To solve the problem of mountain improvements not being pillageable, you could just give mountains a base yield of 2 or 3 hammers and make it so improvements cannot be built there.

    For the plateau, it sounds interesting. For places like Tibet and Ethiopia, it's hard to represent them as plateaus in any way other than just filling it with hills. I don't know too much about those areas, but it might not be correct that they are hilly. I mean, the Appalachian mountains are hills in the game, and are they the same as the Tibetan plateau?
     
  11. Fresol

    Fresol Angry Halfling in Green

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    I don't know the geography without specifically reading about it either. But now that we are having better cavalry mechanics we definitely could introduce plateaus into the game.
     
  12. Malchar

    Malchar Chieftain

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    I've been working on my own world map for DOC, and I've had some trouble properly representing the marginally productive lands in northern Canada and Siberia. It's not tundra because that is reserved for the northern coastal area. Climate maps typically represent this area as boreal forest or taiga. It also feels weird to use the marsh tiles here when the areas don't necessarily have large bodies of water. It would be nice to have a greenish-colored tile that only yields 1 food or alternatively 1 food and 1 hammer like plains.

    I'm currently using plains with a healthy amount of forest and hills mixed in, and it works pretty well, but I think it would look a lot better if it were colored dark green or perhaps a brownish green color. The light yellow plains just evokes the wrong idea especially in central asia and the northern rocky mountains where the two terrain types run right into each other.
     
  13. Bautos42

    Bautos42 Chieftain

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    Adding a Terrain type is actually quite easy: You just have to add fitting Tags in CIV4ArtDefines_Terrain and CIV4TerrainInfos and add the Terrain and Button-Art to the appropriate folders in the Art-folder. As you're working on a modmod, you can just add it yourself. If you are searching for fitting art, RFCEurope has a similar terrain type, you could just use that.
     
  14. Malchar

    Malchar Chieftain

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    Thanks for that information; I will definitely work on that. I'm interested if anyone has any other ideas for representing new terrain types.

    I'm also curious about how to represent the jungle areas in west and central Africa and in southeast Asia. Currently, if you chop the jungle/rainforest, you end up with cities that have many rivers and all the workable tiles are grassland. It seems like those areas shouldn't be that productive, but I'm legitimately unsure if this is accurate based on the region's climate.

    The idea that I'm currently working with on the map is to use plains with rainforest/jungle, so that even if you chop it, it's not amazingly productive. However. This runs into a similar problem of unsightly yellow plains with green jungle on top.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    The way it currently works in the game is definitely wrong. Rainforests are incredibly efficient in recycling nutrients, i.e. it is almost a closed cycle where no nutrients remain in the ground for long before being consumed by some sort of organism. That means that if you remove the rainforest, the soil would be barren very quickly, which is why e.g. Brazilian deforestation is used for cattle ranching and not agricultural crops. So the resulting ingame terrain without rainforest would probably be more accurate with 1 base food, or a terrain type you cannot farm or build cottages on.
     
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  16. Malchar

    Malchar Chieftain

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    I've been using the Koppen climate classification map as a basis for dividing up the different terrain types on the map. A simple solution would be adding one new terrain that's the same as plains except with a darker-green color. It would represent the tropical climates and also the subarctic boreal climates. I can post more information about other climate types later.
     
  17. Royal Tenenbaum

    Royal Tenenbaum Pacific Phytopathologist

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    Let's go all in and introduce different resource bonuses depending on which terrain they are on, how far away they are from the ocean, and what speed you are playing the game on so as to determine the rotation speed of the planet.

    I don't think jungles and rainforests should be able to be completely removed. I think biology should just allow you to build whatever improvements you want inside it. With the introduction of a canal improvement, this will also make more sense in Panama, where they did not clear cut the entire isthmus from shore to shore in order to build a stream.
     
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  18. Malchar

    Malchar Chieftain

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    Yea I definitely agree. I don't find the removal of jungle to be a very interesting mechanic. It's just something you have to do. In vanilla, it's necessary to prevent you from developing certain parts of the map, but that isn't needed in DoC since there are so many geographical barriers built in.

    If we could simply build farms on top of jungle/rainforest without removing them, then it would keep the built-in disadvantage of the terrain. I think that this would more accurately represent those areas of the world.

    For farms, it might not even be desirable to require a tech to do this. The +1 food from biology (or whichever new tech) would provide a sufficient bonus.
     
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  19. AtlantaMarty

    AtlantaMarty No longer active

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    Well, since a new and improved map that's 142% the size of the current map is planned for 1.17, I do have 2 plot types suggestions
    1. Moorland - the graphics can be borrowed from RFCE - it could give 1 food, and represent the marginally useful lands in places like Scandinavia and Northern Scotland
    2. Semidesert - the graphics can be borrowed from SoI - it could give 1 production, and represent large swathes of land that are neither desert nor plains, but something in between. It didn't make much sense with the current, smaller, map, but given the amount of desert area on the new map (especially in Persia and Arabia), I think it would be a nice addition, both from a gameplay and aesthetic point of view.
     
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