New Research system for Civ5

[dragodon64]

I always thought it was a bit odd that back when you don't have the wheel, you're people can "research" it and know that they will discover it 200 years in the future. Instead I was thinking of a more "random" research path, where you can set resources to scientific discovery but not have certain results.

One idea I've had since Civ3 was that instead of using commerce as beakers to research a tech by accumalating enough beakers, the system should be that every turn you have a y=kx chance of getting a the tech you are researching, where y is the chance of getting a tech, x is the number of beakers generated per turn, and k is the tech's modifier.

Ex. Researching steel, it's unlikely that your scientists will know exactly when it will be discovered, but you have a 20% chance of discovering it each turn because of the you are making say 500/turn. If you were making 300/turn, then the chance would be 12% instead.

 

[Cabay Jet]

Huh, interesting idea, but you'd have to make the chance of discovering a tech greater as time went on so you don't end up with having only Iron Working in 1800 AD.

 

[LUEser]

that system is logical but the slight chance that someone can just zip along the tech tree with amazing odds is too high compared to what we have now

 

[dragodon64]

Just an idea, in fact i dont even like it all that much anymore.

The reason it appealed to me was that it could mirror HUGE tech progress like 1800s Britain and 1900s America, while also showing some like the Zulu or Aztecs who keep getting 99% chance of discovering a tech for 1000 years.

 

[alpaca]

It's an interesting idea but I don't think it'd be good for gameplay. The problem is that if you don't know when you will get certain techs, the whole thing becomes random and planning and strategical thinking can't really be applied to it anymore all that well.

In addition, consider for example how pissed you'd be if you're researching Liberalism for 1000 years only to find somebody else who just started it rolled a lucky die.

 

[Proud]

Why not evolve the idea a little:

Civs generate generic tech beakers.
Techs require at least x beakers, at most z, and with the probability of discovering it increasing through the range in-between.

You could keep the choice of tech to research, and required previous techs, but not be so certain of when you'll research what.

I guess a larger change would be a generic pool of beakers, which is diminished as a new tech is discovered, maybe in combination with only being able to bias certain techs like the BtS espionage system.

 

[PibbZ]

Interesting idea, but after all, this is a strategy game. Strategy, taste that word a little.

A strategy is a long term plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal, most often "winning". Strategy is differentiated from tactics or immediate actions with resources at hand by its nature of being extensively premeditated

- Wikipedia

As you can see, too many random factors will kill some or most of the strategy part.

 

[dragodon64]

Why not evolve the idea a little:

Civs generate generic tech beakers.
Techs require at least x beakers, at most z, and with the probability of discovering it increasing through the range in-between.

You could keep the choice of tech to research, and required previous techs, but not be so certain of when you'll research what.

I guess a larger change would be a generic pool of beakers, which is diminished as a new tech is discovered, maybe in combination with only being able to bias certain techs like the BtS espionage system.

Great idea, that would reduce chances of flukes and broken game discs

I guess I didn't explain well enough, but in my system you would have been able to select your tech, just not know when you would get it. But your way seems to be more feasable gameplay-wise, since you there is still a random factor, but it isn't that random.

 

[King Flevance]

I think it would be cool if the techs were split into sections first. (Military, cultural, economic, etc.)

Then in those sections have tech groups. FOr instance Militaries first group could be Hunting, Archery, Bronze Working, Wheel, and Animal Husbandry. (This is just an example.)

Now if you select military, You have a chance of gaining any one of these. As there are no more need to have pre-requisites. Or at least have very few techs correspond to one another in such a random system.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I always thought it was a bit odd that back when you don't have the wheel, you're people can "research" it and know that they will discover it 200 years in the future. Instead I was thinking of a more "random" research path, where you can set resources to scientific discovery but not have certain results.

It's probably just semantics, but I've always thought of "researching" techs more like "developing" them.

For example, we already know about Cloning and Bionics. However, from a Civ Game research standpoint, we have far from finished researching it, so we don't really have any of its benefits yet.

That sort of ties in with the idea of requisite techs ... those prerequisite techs represent the technologies necessary to give us the idea of future technologies -- thus allowing us to funnel into "Research & Development".

Otherwise, I have nothing constructive to add to this discussion at this time ...


-- my 2

 

[Mesix]

It's an interesting idea but I don't think it'd be good for gameplay. The problem is that if you don't know when you will get certain techs, the whole thing becomes random and planning and strategical thinking can't really be applied to it anymore all that well.

In addition, consider for example how pissed you'd be if you're researching Liberalism for 1000 years only to find somebody else who just started it rolled a lucky die.

Maybe a system where you have an estimated time for a given tech, but each turn there is a chance for a breakthrough. The BTS events does this somewhat already. Being able to use great people to push research forward is also big.

 

[Cer]

does anybody else find it bizzare that if I do 90% of my research in my capital, the tech to build catapults still arrives at the far reaches of my empire, at the same instant it arrives at my capital? It takes a chariot 100+ years to get there at full speed, and yet the technology for building the darn catapult is instant.

The other thing I find strange is how non-military techs don't spread to neighboring civs by accident. Like, we have trade routes with france, and we know horseback riding, they have horses and have seen us riding them around, we have currency/money and they've seen us using it, but yet the don't pick up the habits themselves. I mean, weapon-making skills are one thing, but ideas like money, horse-riding, pottery, etc. just get accidentally spread (or spread without government being able to stop it) as long as there is contact between civilians from different nations.

It would be cool if techs spread rapidly from a randomly-picked city (weighted toward ones that make lots of ) at the approximate speed that your worker units can go (that is, slow in jungle, fast on roads, faster on railroads) with some random slow-downs to account for some folks refusing to accept new ideas. Then the techs might tend not to spread across national borders too quickly, but it would happen once the tech became old news in the inventing civ, especially with non-military techs.

 

[Peepers]

As an alternative, it might be codeable to have the techs researched in the current way (planned in advance with a certain finishing date/turn), but have the effects gradated from the time of discovery. For example, when you discover Wheel, maybe workers would initially have a five-turn base work time to make a road, with a gradual reduction (say one worker-turn every play turns in standard). After a while, you would be able to build at the normal rate. The same "new discovery delay" could apply to all buildings and units as well, in the form of a hammer modifier. This would reflect the gradual spread and acceptance of the new technologies. You could even play with reducing these "time penalties" for the last civs who discover the requisite tech, as a catch-up and assimilation mechanism.

One effect could be that starting techs for civs could come "fully grokked" with no delay, magnifying their importance for each civ.

This new concept could have many repercussions. It would blunt early rushes. The pace of the game would be fundamentally changed. Brokering for new techs would be vital, to get their effects up and running sooner. Clearly, some techs have immediate effects (tech trading, civic access, extra trade routes, etc) which would not change.

 

[Geon]

I have been pondering the idea, much like previously posted where it takes a while to perfect a tech, that instead of you're research determining your playstyle, have it opposite.

Make a lot of military units, your weapons become better over time.

Mine a bunch of hills, gain insight on metallurgical methods and engineering.

Face a superior military, learn from their gear.

supporting urbanization could develop legal, cultural, and engineering branches.

Foster trade and explore, learn a lot about currency and economics.

Maybe also still have a research goal, something that is consciously pursued by your society that will give bonuses on those actions.

But still have it in a tangible system with predictable results, so that there is still a strategical element. This could give the option to research many techs simultaneously. Also, if one ignores an area for long, it becomes that much more difficult(more actions or buildings) to research.

That being said, I think that civ IV is probably the closest to a perfect ratio of pure pre game strategy planning and playing the hand you're dealt.

 

[V. Soma]

Geon, I would very much welcome something along these lines in Civ 5

Yes, I believe that teching is developing, not simply decision-making...

Yes, strategy is key in Civ, but player should concentrate on real actions,
like what way I am developing my land,
what peaceful/wartime actions I do (trade, contacts, diplo relations, war, city conquers etc),
what is the way I specialize my cities...

Also leader traits should count more in tech dev.,
also the natural characteristics of the land and my society...

But considering all above, still give a player some means
to be able to plan somewhat, to play strategy

just my 2 cents...

 

[axident]

Master of Orion had a system where once you hit the 'beakers' for a tech, you started getting a %chance of discovery for it that kept going higher as you kept putting more beakers into it. Also, in that game you could also research 6 techs at the same time. Also, if you ever had 0% of your total research budget allotted to something, accumulated beakers would DECLINE by some % each turn. Conversely, if you kept funding at above 0% you would get some sort of compounding effect each turn, the idea being that it's hard to restart programs once you kill them, and it's easier to attract scientists for research when you have some bare minimum of funding. In practice this usually meant that you kept funding pretty even, until you got to something really juicy, at which point you'd slide 5 of the techs' funding to 1% and dump everything else into that juicy tech's research budget.

 

[Pidesco]

SMAC!


It had the option of blind research.

 

[Nay]

Problem is, why should i research anything myself if i just have to wait until i learn it?

I think it would be easier to implement if you got a bonus if your neighbour had it, or you could buy beakers from them instead of the whole tech.

Like, giving you a hint or something, not the whole thing...

 

[RedRalph]

Maybe certain events give you the chance of spontaneously discovering a tech? Like say

War lasting >20 turns gives 10% chance of discovering a military tech

Having > 10 mines gives 10% chance of discovering Metal Casting

Bulod > 7 hospitals gives massive reduction on beakers needed to research genetics etc etc

I love the strategic element, but inventions are something that almost always come about by accident, plus war almost always gives birth to new innovations

 

[gunter]

In these cases I always suggest to firstly think about how to better the latest patch,maybe a year later Civ V discussions will be appreciated but in this moment you are only IMO speculating on how to drain money from Civ IV unsatisfied customers who are still dealing with 3.13 bugs...luckily Bhruic is performing like a super star....