1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

New Sandbox & Screenshots for Dotmapping - T43

Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by YossarianLives, Sep 30, 2012.

  1. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,953
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    I was hoping to nail down that city as a longterm powerhouse and secure it with skilful diplomacy. Naturally, the team's opinion trumps mine.
     
  2. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,953
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    I realize in hindsight that sounds a lot like "Settling in the confident hope of a miracle".
     
  3. Bowsling

    Bowsling Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2008
    Messages:
    5,000
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Why are you guys so deathly afraid of Terasvin being the Hindu holy city? The only problem I see is that the third city will need a monument if it isn't the Hindu holy city. Thirty-hammer difference. :)
     
  4. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,953
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    More like, we really want Goldcity to be Holy, for the huge synergy Holiness has with an economic powerhouse.
     
  5. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

    Joined:
    May 26, 2012
    Messages:
    2,097
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Terasvin as the Holy City just doesn't seem to do much to benefit our empire. Everything the city needs is already in its culture, and it won't be big enough to need the happy for a long time. The one benefit in the test game was getting a free spread into Indira for the happy.

    I'll play out the next runthrough without a religion, since it's probably better to plan for the worse case scenario.
     
  6. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    I think something is wrong with this sandbox, as Hinduism was founded way before the turn 43.
     
  7. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

    Joined:
    May 26, 2012
    Messages:
    2,097
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Yeah, sorry, I haven't been controlling for that type of stuff. It's not a very tight sandbox. I WorldBuilt the religion into the city on the turn we complete Poly when I wanted to play through with a religion.
     
  8. Bowsling

    Bowsling Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2008
    Messages:
    5,000
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Still - stalling our research on Polytheism just so we can settle and a far-flung city that we want a free border pop in just doesn't counterweigh the benefits that we can get from getting Hinduism ASAP and the risk associated with delaying research of Poly.

    There is no synergy between a holy city and a commerce city, unless I'm totally missing something here. The Holy City does not produce any gold modifiers, it just gives us a dynamic revenue depending on how prevalent Hinduism is. Two cities that produce 50 GPT is almost the exact same as one city that produces 100 GPT*.

    *Granted, you have to build two marketplaces and two banks instead of one.
     
  9. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    Which is not a small thing - like 300+ hammers. 400+ if you add a grocer. And any of those cant be built for less (like Libs for CRE and Unis for PHI leader)

    Technically yes, it does not produce any benefit by itself being a Holy City, but this is what the Holy City does - it builds ONLY gold modifiers buildings, as the gold which comes from pilgrims once we build the Holy Building of a given religion, got multiplied by gold multiplying buildings and then they give Merchant citizens slots, where you put Merchants to further empower the Gold multiplying buildings.

    You are right however, that a Holy City does not requires a lot of COMMERCE capabilities. It needs more food, to be able to run those merchants all the time to make multiplied slider-independent gold. Often it is preferred location for National Epic and Wall Street too (to give those non-stop run merchants bonus on the GP production and then WS gives more merchants slots and 100% gold multiplying).

    In regard to this, the third city I am planning (and testing at the moment) is not the NE-of-gold-supercommerce-city, but 2W-of-gold-super-food.
     
  10. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,953
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    You make an excellent case for it. Pity we can't have all that food AND a river. Well, it's not like any of these are horrible options, and I can easily live with any of them.
     
  11. bcool

    bcool Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    5,571
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Okay I played with the test game here are my T75 and T85 saves

    I didn't go with stonehenge.
    I didn't gamble with the deer city, just settled by the gold.

    I got an academy in the capital T82 I believe.
    I banked gold after I finished writing, monotheism

    I think I'm producing 100 research per turn, and I have 10 turns at that rate before I go broke.

    here is the statistics screen for T85
    Spoiler :
     

    Attached Files:

  12. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    So, I did played to turn 85 and compared the results.

    bcool did quite a good job in building academy and 7 cities - 1 city more than mine 6. However, the cumulative citizens of bcool are 23, where mine are 27.

    Our hammer output is absolutely draw - 37 vs 37.

    Our beakers per turn are almost the same - bcool have slight advantage with 1 beaker - 100vs99. But the actual commerce is heavily in my favor - 29 vs 46 - thats more than 50% advantage, which once my academy is up will magically result in some 20-30% more beakers output too.

    Our food per turn shows heavy advantage of the SH-monument empowered optimal city placement with 71 vs 89 - 25% more food combined with 3 granaries vs 4 for me - that is a lot of food advantage.

    In buildings and units built, the SH-monument powered culture pop-ups allowed me to chop in twice as many workers than bcool - 5 vs 10. bcool built 4 axes and 5 warriors, where I built 13 warriors. 2 libraries each.

    bcool preserved most of his forests for later chops too, which is definitely a bonus, but I do have enough forests (and more important in the cultural borders) too.

    Here are the screens for further reference:

    bcool:

    Spoiler :






    2metra:

    Spoiler :




     
  13. bcool

    bcool Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    5,571
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Re: the comparison

    You can certainly switch tiles around to increase my commerce. I can also emphasize cottages more. One city could work 3 more existing cottages for example so my commerce would increase by 6-9.

    I also built a barracks and 3 of the 4 axes were produced with it. I have to imagine we are going to want a real military unit before T85. I skipped hunting, but in the real game I imagine we wouldn't want to just so we can also build a few spears as well as axes.

    The question is do you want to save the forests until we have mathematics and build a different wonder (like the pyramids) or do you want to chop the forests without mathematics and build stonehenge and more workers?

    I don't think these 2 tests out to T85 clearly answer what is best or not. I didn't see a need for 10 workers since I wasn't heavily chopping forests or stonehenge.

    Another huge difference is I have a great scientist and an academy. That was a sacrifice for the capital to produce, but I think it will pay off well. Sure when 2metraninja gets an academy it will increase his commerce but his academy is at least 17 turns away.

    I unfortunately won't have time to optimize my game, so I don't know what is best. Even if we build stonehenge though I'm sure an early academy is the way to go.

    There were way too many decisions to tease out what made the difference in our games. I don't think stonehenge is necessarily the reason his game is better.
    For example, assuming Mantra with be the Holy city for hinduism is a huge IF and that helps his game tremendously.
     
  14. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    Yes, you can, but you will lose in other areas, where you are already tied up or losing (production and food). And 25% more food is HUGE.

    With good sentry net (13 warriors) and NAPs in place we can go with less real military overall to some date well beyond t85. But I can imagine we will need few axes to fight the occasional barbs (sentry net helps in this too). My lack of axes comes from me allowing myself to connect the copper much later. I took notice from Yossa's suggestions it could be built better and connected earlier.

    All but 3-4 chops are math-enhanced. I teched math early and just then started to de-forest.

    With FIN and good cotteageable land, Mids lose most of their appeal. If we secure stone, yeah, why not, they are still nice to have, but not anymore game breaking as usual.

    Nope, it is some 8-10 turns away - I did worked some scientists in the meantime, just could not get GS born till t85.

    My idea behind having so many workers is to be able to improve instantly each and every city planted - having food improved, then granary chopped, then cottages/mines or whatever built till it hits the happy limit. Then he builds new settlers and new workers, which every city settled in no time turns in to productive center. And so we can continue expanding almost indefinitely. Especially once we get Currency.

    So am I in the almost same position, we will have to debate strategy vs strategy rather than specific MM plan vs Mm plan as I wont have the time to make detailed MM plan till turn 85 (it is just too much of a time and anything can happen anyway - barbs, hostile team showing nearby, etc.). I just wanted to show that SH is powerful. It gives flexibility. It starts the snowball rolling, so you can do everything and go everywhere after.

    Agree to some degree. Can try the same game with Teras as the Holy City tomorrow :)

    Of course they dont show which is better. It just show that SH is absolutely viable strategy, it just needs time to show - from there it will start only better and better. Chopping early and hard is another thing I think shone in my so-so-test game (played it only once without much thinking). But one thing I am sure of - SH is way more valuable than a single worker. It repays and turns on profit very easy and early.
     
  15. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    Hey, vranasm, I am glad to see you around, mate. Can you try the sandbox till t85 or at least comment on the discussion and our reasoning?
     
  16. bcool

    bcool Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    5,571
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Okay I played to T85 again assuming a "Mantra" city that founds Hinduism. I wasn't as aggressive building an academy --6 turns away.

    7 cities with a settler moving towards the stone.
    Spoiler :





    similar results as 2metraninja, similar beakers per turn, crop yield and hammers. (a few more beakers per turn, a little bit less crop yield and hammers). We are reaching happiness limits in several cities.

    I have an extra granary and baracks, 3 fewer workers, I only built 1 axe, but working on another.

    There really is only one city (the pigs/cows/wine) city that really cries out for immediate culture. I whipped a monument there.

    I think the pyramids would be strong wonder for just the happiness. especially if we can get the stone quickly. I guess it depends on whether we are gunning for hereditary rule. If that is the case more warriors probably should be built.

    Stonehenge is 120 hammers, so it takes approximately 1 settler and a warrior. This extra settler however could mean we claim the stone before RB does. Stone might mean the pyramids or the hanging gardens. What is the long term strategy for us to get ahead? Do we have a bulbing strategy? There are some strong uses for great engineers. (bulbing machinery for example).

    I don't see a strong difference in either approach. The biggest difference in the original games is the assumption of "Mantra founding Hinduism" in my mind.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

    Joined:
    May 26, 2012
    Messages:
    2,097
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    I really agree with this. We should have a much better idea of the best strategy in the next few turns once we determine if and where we get Hinduism, and also if it looks like the SH gambit will work. Thanks for your work, bcool!
     
  18. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

    Joined:
    May 26, 2012
    Messages:
    2,097
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    One note about the micro plan. In his test game, 2metra switched off the Warrior in Terasvin on T46, but in reality we finished the Warrior that was at 14/15. That puts us 1 hammer short of completing SH on T56, so we will need to switch off the Wheat and onto the 2:hammers: plains forest before we chop it in order to keep T56 as the completion date.
     
  19. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    I have to see about it, but I though the 2 chops will give enough hammers for it. As for the warrior, I have left it to finish because of the barbarian warrior near Terasvin to be able to build other 2-turn warrior if need arises. Plans are plans, but sole surviving is the most important and sometimes you get bad luck with barbs - like losing 80% or even 97% battle. So option for backup is a must.
     
  20. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    Anyone willing to test out settling quick the copper/sheep fourth city by chopping out our fourth settler?
     

Share This Page