New sandbox t68

[2metraninja]

So, here is a so-so sandbox, but it can give us good idea of what to expect in the next 10,20,30 and till turn100 turns.

* spend a turn of teching something which you dont intend to get in the test window of time as I finished Mono 1 turn earlier.
* chop yourself those 2 forest near Teras in Worker and then kill off the normal workers.

Sandbox t68

 

[vranasm]

will try to look at it... but these days are a bit tough for me with time :-(

can you elaborate a bit more on point 2? it's not clear to me what's meant with it.

 

[2metraninja]

I mean in the real game we have a Fast Worker 2 turns from completion in the queue, while in the sandbox I forgot to put it. I have WorldBuilded 2 forest which are not in the real game near Terasvin and have put 3 normal workers on top of each forest to cut them in a single turn in to Fast Worker next turn. Then you only need to kill off the normal Worldbuilded workers.

 

[vranasm]

I mean in the real game we have a Fast Worker 2 turns from completion in the queue, while in the sandbox I forgot to put it. I have WorldBuilded 2 forest which are not in the real game near Terasvin and have put 3 normal workers on top of each forest to cut them in a single turn in to Fast Worker next turn. Then you only need to kill off the normal Worldbuilded workers.

hmm I see

 

[vranasm]

ok i tried some 15(16) turns of the sandbox...

I did there terrible mistake with not documenting the first turns the way I did later turns. It's bad because i switched tiles between capital and terasvin couple of times, the same with Mantra and the gold city (I remember there working the gold for only 1-2 turns and then switching to pigs and giving gold to mantra etc)

anyway I really really underestimated the problem with roading towards stone, so I settled stone city T79 (maybe 78 not sure now) and have T80 really massive OF in terasvin (cca 70 hammers) but no stone since the worker that should finish the road was too late :-(.

if you like what you see metra we will reiterate a bit again the beginning (btw why monument in capital? finish the granary instead) since the tile switching was very important.

 

[2metraninja]

The monument was to take some hammers from the capitol as it would have finished Granary otherwise. Well it was not the perfect simulation of the game - my bad - and even it is not needed your movements to be documented tile by tile and move by move - we can think of even better micromanagement when we have days to think of a single turn moves - but it could show us the general direction. I am actually surprised you tried it with the Pyramids - I though you will play it with cottages and then Monarchy, while I was hoping to hit your score in the dust with building the Pyramids

Anyway, maybe you saw the potential of my idea and thats why you tied it. I will try to play few turns now too.

 

[vranasm]

The monument was to take some hammers from the capitol as it would have finished Granary otherwise. Well it was not the perfect simulation of the game - my bad - and even it is not needed your movements to be documented tile by tile and move by move - we can think of even better micromanagement when we have days to think of a single turn moves - but it could show us the general direction. I am actually surprised you tried it with the Pyramids - I though you will play it with cottages and then Monarchy, while I was hoping to hit your score in the dust with building the Pyramids

Anyway, maybe you saw the potential of my idea and thats why you tied it. I will try to play few turns now too.

well there is a bit more wrong with the sandbox then... beware of the free gold from stonehenge...

and i didn't build the Mids btw...it's impossible in next 14 turns and those 70 hammers in teraswin could be used into something else then Mids too...

I got out 3 libraries, 1 settler, 1 worker and couple axes I think or something like that. so we would have like 200 gold banked with 3 libraries to burn through at the last save.

I can do at least 1 more test tomorrow, but tough to say what is currently the aim of tests.

 

[2metraninja]

beware of the free gold from stonehenge...

Yes, I removed the gold via the WB when it came.

Got The Pyramids t89 with awful micromanagement. (working 10 turns unimproved forested plain hill, etc.) Can have sustainable 68 bpt at that point. Got Writing and Math just in time for the last 3 chops too. Currency in 7 turns.

The idea of this sandbox is to help us decide whether we want to go and try build Pyramids or we want to tech Monarchy while building settlers/workers and expanding. And which approach will give us better results at say turn 100.

I will continue to turn 100 now.

 

[YossarianLives]

Thanks vranasm for giving us a test save to consider, and also to 2metra for putting the sandbox together. I'll also have a shot at it without the Pyramids to T100 to see what I can get, but I won't be able to play until tomorrow at the earliest, probably.

 

[2metraninja]

As I said, got Pyramids with awful micromanagement at t89 for 68 sustainable beakers. Thats the one save.

The next is at turn 100, where I have 9 cities (10 to be next turn) with the same awful micromanagement (getting late here and want to get some sleep) at 30% science slider and 53 sustainable beakers. Had built 5 libraries and 5 granaries. Have 9 axes, 2 spears and 7 warriors. 9 fast workers are improving the land. Still 6-7 turns to Academy though. Teched Currency after Math and stashing gold.

The year is 350 BC and we can have 3-4 more cities in the next 10 turns.

Will need to test what happens if we lose the Pyramids at say turn 80 (halfway).

I will want a test what happens if we dont go Pyramids at all, but go Priesthood, Writing, Monarchy and only expand.

 

[vranasm]

the turn to played too is T100 then? I will today afternoon from the sandbox without Mids route.

 

[Jovan Kukic]

I have played till t89, and compared that with Ninja's save from t89. It is easy to see that Pyramids are not worth such a big sacrifice like having weak stone city. Representation is less valuable if we have financial leader.
I have noticed that in t68 save there aren't changed civics and state religion. We play as spiritual leader, so we don't need to wait for golden ages to make such changes.
Bigger cities with river cottages are economically stronger than small cities, even if small cities slaved the libraries.
Although that is contrary to your strategy, I propose to reduce slaving, and let cities grow, while big cities with much food build settlers

View attachment Mansa Musa BC-0875t80sandbox.CivBeyondSwordSave

View attachment Mansa Musa BC-0650t89sandbox.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[2metraninja]

I will take a look at your save tonight when I get home. Please play it out to t100 to have a good base for comparison, as at turn 89 I just had The Pyramids and I sacrificed a lot to get them, so the investment needs some time to start repaying.

Of course I will do take note of your advices and take a good consideration on them, as I respect your play. I hope others in the team will do the same and that you can participate more often in the discussions of the team, we need every input, especially if from such a player as you.

To those who dont know who Jovan is, I can say few words to introduce him. Not only he have some of the highest and best scores in the CFC GOTMs and HOF, but Jovan is a legend in the MP world too. He is one of the few best and most feared civ4 duelers of the world. I remember him having like 24:1 wins:loses ratio at The League.

{OT} I hope that at some point I can earn the honor of crossing swords in duel with you, Jovan and try my luck {/OT}

 

[vranasm]

I came up with something like this to T100 without Mids somewhat normal gameplay aimed at working cottages around capital etc etc

sitting on GS for like 6-7 turns, 120 bpt on 100% slider, but that is nowhere sustainable.

10 cities, 1 settler ready to travel somewhere. 12 workers, 7 axes, 7 warriors, 1 spear, capital size 10, 4 libraries, 7 granaries, not sure with monuments

didn't check your save ninja...so just tell me if this is anything worth.

didn't went through priesthood and wasn't sure about the judaism switch so i didn't switch into judaism (would make the results a bit more interesting regarding city builds imho).

edit:
seems to me I lag a lot behind in techs though... far away from currency (at least based on description)

has to be the monarchy you probably didn't tech

 

[2metraninja]

After checking vranasm's sandbox to turn100, I see things are quite the same on cities/worker/units count and buildings built.

The beakers at 100% slider are 120 beakers without Pyramids vs 156 with Pyramids, which despite a good difference is still not that major (25%)

However, with The Pyramids we are running sustainable 58 beakers per turn and without The Pyramids we can run only 18 sustainable beakers. Even with the way earlier vranasm's GS and after building Academy in Indira, we are still at 21 sustainable beakers. 58 vs 21 is 3 times more. I would have risen the sustainable beakers over 100 if I wanted for five times the difference with building gold in few cities, as I had Currency at turn 100, while vranasm have 40+ turns still to Currency.

I am waiting for Yossarians and Jovan's results at turn 100 so all the team members can judge the results and then I will call a vote for the Pyramids.

 

[vranasm]

I have to say maybe going currency before Monarchy is worth the shot to test...

I think I had much better expansion then the Mids save, but that was expected (I judge it as 1 more settler and 2 workers, since the third worker is ~2 axes you had more)

The nonexistance of currency is problematic, so seems to me that going Monarchy before it will hurt our game the most.

It makes the Mids stronger choice, but we don't know the other teams progress on this wonder and is gamble.

If there is anything I took from my test, it's that Monarchy before Currency is plain bad.

It means to me at the same time that going PH and delaying Writing is not worth the turns.

I would like to still test a bit the writing->math->currency without building Mids, but I am afraid I won't have time today (my brother came to town) and not sure about tomorrow.

 

[2metraninja]

I have to say maybe going currency before Monarchy is worth the shot to test...

That is one possibility to be tested for sure. If we take the advice of Jovan to heart it might happen that we dont need Monarchy that soon. But it still must be tested to show its potential to turn 100.

I think I had much better expansion then the Mids save, but that was expected (I judge it as 1 more settler and 2 workers, since the third worker is ~2 axes you had more)

Yes, you have 1 city more settled and did not spent turns building roads toward stone and chopping 3 forested hills. But at the end, the economy says bigger is not always better. We must compare food and production output too. My food output is 113 food and 38 hammers. (Just checked and I am making 107 bpt at breakeven with building gold. 107 vs 21 - thats huge difference.)

Also checked the other components for your save and it turns out you have 117 food for me having 113 and you have 51 hammers, while I have 38. So speaking pure development, going Pyramids does not hurts our development, but it is even way stronger in my opinion (trading 25% more hammers for 200% increase in the beakers). Also, with Pyramids we dont have to worry to tech Monarchy soon and at turn 100 we have 2 highly valuable techs more - Mathematics and Currency.

It makes the Mids stronger choice, but we don't know the other teams progress on this wonder and is gamble.

I already said that there is not much chance most of the teams are any better in the Pyramids race. And yes, it is a gamble, but with average secure play we get secure average position in the game. And the only gamble we will make is the stone city we will place, because we will have the same tech path anyway (most probably Writing, Math, Currency) and we will know if we have chances for The Pyramids, as we will build them in the last 4-5-6 turns after we connect the stone and tech Math anyway. Even if we got beaten to The Pyramids at that point, we will get quite big sum of failgold money, which we will use to tech whatever we want - currency or monarchy or whatever we desire. Things are aligning so smooth - we got Judaism in Terasvin, just as I was hoping to be able to use Organized Religion in further discount on the Pyramids. One can see that as a sign of our new God

If there is anything I took from my test, it's that Monarchy before Currency is plain bad.

Needs to be tested and no hurry for that, we still have some 7 turns before we tech Writing.

It means to me at the same time that going PH and delaying Writing is not worth the turns.

I am totally with you on that. In my test I did not bothered tech it either.

I would like to still test a bit the writing->math->currency without building Mids, but I am afraid I won't have time today (my brother came to town) and not sure about tomorrow.

There are 2 more days till this turn rolls and we need to save money for 2 other turns to tech Writing at 100% anyway, so you will have some time to test it before we make a vote. Also will be very interested to see Yossa's and Jovan's results at turn 100.

 

[vranasm]

what is the policy of adopting the religion ninja? am I allowed to use it?

 

[Jovan Kukic]

I'm too lazy to play till turn 100, because it doesn't change anything. Till that turn I would maybe put some cities in places that wouldn't be available in real game. If you're curious to compare saves at t100, you can simply play from my save at t89, working bonus resources and river cottages first, building settlers/workers in already grown cities till monarchy, without using slavery.
We need to have at least one city not connected to our trade network, in order to produce many cheap WARRIORS
I think there is much area for settling and cottaging, so I wouldn't even think about Pyramids and specialists. We should use river cottages first, and later to put cottages in almost all visible grasslands, in order to use our financial trait.
Comparing Pyramids-save and cottages-save at t89 gives us enough information, through almost double difference in food+hammers. Having more cottages is better than slaving libraries, especially if we are going to have huge empire. On long-term, fin cottages easily win vs non-phi specialists
City placement is important. For example, cow+pig+horse is much better than rice+desert_stone

 

[2metraninja]

what is the policy of adopting the religion ninja? am I allowed to use it?

But yes of course! I even did that in the real game when logged in to witness the encounter in Terasvin.