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New Spain (sort of)- intentionally avoid district adjacencies?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by ShakaKhan, Apr 26, 2021.

  1. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    Apologies if this is old news as the change to the mission improvement actually happened well before the April rebalance.

    So, haven't played Spain in a while (ever) as there was little incentive to do so; probably others in the same boat. Obviously the highlights of the rebalance for Spain are the extra yields from trade routes (which you can further exploit with Owls if you play SS) and the bonuses to intercontinental setting. So I'm hyped to play them, but as I'm looking over their traits in preparation, I noticed something...

    Spain's mission improvement does not list ANY placement restrictions; most UI either can't be next to each other or only on flat, but the mission doesn't seem to have any placement restrictions (curious about floodplains, marshes, rainforests, and woods, but even assuming no to all of them...) I'd say there's 4 tiers of mission placements, excluding tile base yield. From lowest to highest, Tier 1 is on the home continent not adjacent to a campus or holy site, Tier 2 is home continent with that adjacency, Tier 3 is off-continent without adjacency, and Tier 4 is off continent with HS/CMP adjacency. The +2 science from the late-game civic is not to little but definitely too late; the game is pretty much decided at that point and the big influx of science is good but isn't going to have much impact other than shaving a few turns off of victory.

    Now, the most you're ever going to get with a holy site adjacency is 6 if it's completely surrounded by mountains. Arguably it could be more if it's adjacent to one or more natural wonder tiles AND has multiple mountains or a lot of woods, but that's one in a billion map luck. Even on the worst (my tier list) positioning, instead of surrounding a holy site with mountains, NW, and forests, you instead surround it with tiles, preferably hills, that don't have resources (or ones you plan to chop.) Then completely surround the holy site with missions on those six tiles. Each tile will generate 2 faith and the six tiles cumulatively generate 12 faith, which is the same faith bonus as the maximum adjacency of the district while running that policy card. But, being adjacent to a holy site doesn't give more faith, it gives a measly +1 science. But that means sacrificing the district adjacency to completely surround it with missions not only gives you equal or greater faith than you're likely to get from adjacency, but also each holy site indirectly gives you +6 science. A similar but weaker argument can be made for campuses as multiple fissures and reefs can make it's adjacency quite a bit more than six and can be doubled with a policy card but again, would you rather have an extra couple of science, or a couple less and +12 faith all while allowing you to use that policy slot for a different bonus? Strong case towards the latter.

    And this is extremely more potent with the off-continent placements. First off, they get +4 faith instead of +2, so completely surrounding a holy site or campus with missions and working those 6 tiles gets you 24 faith per turn, in addition to +6 science. But the real difference-maker is the +1 food and +1 production to the tiles, turning shabby flat grass into respectable 3F/1P tiles with tons of faith and some science, and hilly grass or plains tiles into 3F/2P or 2F/3P tiles which are high priority tiles even before considering the mass amounts of faith and small but consistent boosts to science.

    Anxious to test try it out, but going in I'm thinking with the exeption of the first city or two (as they aren't unlocked until Education and the start bias means good capital campus adjacency--- which helps get to Education), completely foregoing campus and holy site adjacency in lieu of surrounding them with missions means never running either district adjacency or buildings cards allowing to slot in more trade route boosting cards, and that this may be the best yield-porn civ in the game!
     
  2. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Will be interesting to see, I hadn't clicked that they had no restrictions on placement!! The only situation you wouldn't want to do this is Work Ethic with one of the HS boosting Pantheons but I guess that's not what Spain should be doing.
     
  3. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Yes, pretty nice but nowhere near other civs single tile yields. Yesterday was playing with Khmer and had a 10 faith, 10 prod, 10 food holy site which could of course be higher but that’s what I had and felt pretty good for it.
    Some IZ yields are pretty OP but I guess you are talking improvement yields. Where I still think there is stiff competition out there.
    Still, it will be a fun game and perhaps it would be nice to struggle a bit to get there but once you are in a mission position life is good if not a bit too bland. Gave up on my Khmer game. With so much faith being produced each turn and grandmasters, there is no stopping you but as it was I was friends / allied to all, had converted 4 civs without trying and limiting my wonder building as a CV was becoming a threat.

    playing an OP game or 2 can be fun but after the 5th or 6th where is the challenge.
     
  4. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    See, that's where this strategy for Spain seems most potent, in that you can reallocate the conventional choices for others that address areas where the civ is lacking. I've used work ethic in conjunction with Folklore/Aurora/Path to great effect and have seen others do so better than I can. And while production is key and "if some is good, more must be better!" the combination of the extra production from trade routes (to which you should always be trading off continent - he starts near fissures which all but guarantees also starting on a continent split; you settle your second city on the other continent and from then on, even if there isn't an international off-continent target available, every city has a trading target on a different "continent") coupled with good base food/production tiles on missions on other continents and then you have the interspersed mine and mill, and he's set for production, allowing you to reallocate the Work Ethic pick for something else - Spain has no bonus to either culture which you need for civics and border pops or for housing which you'll need to run those 12 mission tiles on other continent, so I would opt for either Feed the World or Choral Music instead of Work Ethic. Albeit these are usually the first two Followers to go. Feed the World and World Church allows Spain to cover all the bases of the six major yield types... except amenities... I guess throw in Stupas!

    My personal opinion, but I don't think there really is a "should be doing" or "right way." I just finished a Science Victory with Gorgo playing almost completely pacifist using Sanguine Pact, and obviously none of those things mesh together "correctly" and I definitely was not doing what "I should be doing." But it was a lot of fun and pretty successful - Immortal Science win on turn 193. The key was having two sets of three cities make preserves in such a configuration that all six tiles adjacent to each of two vampire castles were preserve-boosted tiles.

    Of course, I was not implying that these are the best tiles or even close - once had a plains/hills/woods/spices tile adjacent to two Yosemite tiles and multiple haciendas that was pretty crazy. Hilly-wooded preserve tiles were my thing for a while as well, and soothsayer-boosted floodplains literally have unlimited yield output. The point was more really good yields on a high quantity of low value tiles with no investment. Higher quality tiles are those adjacent to rivers for a multitude of reasons, tiles adjacent to mountains, tiles adjacent to natural wonders, those with resources, and those with high appeal, and this implementation needs none of those. Higher investment tiles are those boosted by wonders or preserves and those aren't needed either. Most people's meta strategy is to have campuses in almost all of their cities for the science progression and the great people points, the only cities they wouldn't have them in are ones that offer no adjacency. With Spain's missions especially on other continents, instead of allocating your highest quality land to get campus adjacency, you can plop it in the worst quality land and get roughly the same amount of science from the surrounding tiles as you would otherwise from the adjacency, all on tiles that are food- and production-boosted and give 4 faith each. Doing this with both the campus and the holy site grants 48 faith per turn per city (off-continent), also supplemented from trade route faith as well as holy site building faith.

    Yeah, I get that - the discussion of looking for a challenge inevitably finds its way towards a rant about the AI and I'd rather not go there. But yeah, it's personal preference but sometimes I'm looking for a challenge, sometimes I want to steamroll, sometimes I just want to sandbox and have some fun. As such, Tamar is my most frequently played civ as she provides the most challenge while a number of civs allow for quenching the other moods that I'm in. As for now, I'm probably going to play a lot of Spain and Khmer games because this fun won't last - both are definitely going to be nerfed and soon.
     
  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I gave them a go last night to see, Dem trade routes!
    I ended up not really bothering with missions, I just did not need them, be nice to see what you think.
     
  6. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    Yeah, I've been working a lot, extra because of Covid, and seem to find myself sucked in to either the forums or Youtube so haven't actually played since the update yet. LOL! Taking today and tomorrow off so I'll finally focus on actually trying them out. I'll post back in a couple days - have a bit of a micromanagement problem with the game so games take me a bit longer.

    Yeah, the trade routes are definitely the centerpiece of Spain's kit, and they may have the most impactful starting bias of all civs as the fissures all but guarantee starting on a continent split which, as aforementioned, means that there's no stopping you from having every one of your TRs target a city, external or internal, on another continent even from the very first one. Plus that starting bias comes with other fringe benefits - science tiles, clean energy, and possibly most importantly early access to 2 continent's arrays of luxury resources.

    As I mentioned, I'm a Secret Societies addict, and I was thinking that they actually have a difficult decision between Owls and Singers. I usually choose a society based on how they'll affect my cities rather than what victory type I'm going for. They'd thrive with both. Any civ that has trade routes as the focal point of their kit almost automatically goes with the Owls, but the missions strategy means simply working those 8+ missions tiles coupled with the trade route faith, Singer's monuments, holy site buildings, and maybe pantheon means the second tier bonus from singers could be insane for culture, science, and gold. I guess the choice depends on your pantheon and which city-states are around you and likely to survive.
     
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Internal, its the first time I have all my cities connected other than with rome. But sure there are other reasons.
    Nevermind, I am sure you will get over it. Just keep playing them a lot. I am a vanilla person myself but some nice topping evry now and then does sweeten for a change.
    Enjoy!.... Covid keeps me busy too, just bunking ATM.
     
  8. Aa602213x1023

    Aa602213x1023 Chieftain

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    Using missions with Work Ethic and one of the pantheons for boosting a Holy Site can actually be an ideal situation for Spain, I think. For example, my first game after the April patch I was playing as Spain on the TSL Huge Earth map. After starting in the Iberian Peninsula, I decided to expand into Northern Africa and Arabia to take advantage of Spain's bonuses for expanding to different continents. After grabbing Desert Folklore and Work Ethic, I got some very nice yields for my Holy Sites and the surrounding missions:







    I suppose this would be difficult to pull off with something like Sacred Path, since the missions would replace the rainforests, but at least with Desert Folklore, I found it very effective.
     
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  9. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    Update - finally started a game - small map, island plates, Societies and Corporations, on turn 91. Just 7 cities but 2 settlers en route, 5 industries. Per turn empire yields are 71 science, 97 culture, 91 faith, 357 gold but they're all about to blow up. Have 5 trade routes, all external (AI Jaoa seems to be able to get a lot of envoys, fighting for suzereinities) and intercontinental. Definitely having fun and gonna finish this game, but think I need to try them again to assess their strength. The thing is I started near 7 desert floodplains tiles and I got the Etamagotchi wonder which I never pulled off before, and it's difficult to attribute how much of the yield-porn is from Spain and how much is from the wonder. Plus, after that river flooded a few times, I was just like, "OK, we get to have it all this game - 'Mids, Colosseum, Mausy, Kilwa, etc. Let's cherry-pick all the good ones." Got really excited when I started near Piopiotahi (2nd city), was worried about civic progression with this civ, definitely putting a culture industry there. Then found Crater Lake on a snow island, meh. And then boom - there's Nan Midol and Auckland, with Nan Midol I'm set for culture, and with Auckland on an island map, even if the terrain is poor, cities can just build a lighthouse and run coastal tiles, even without resources. So will settle that Crater Lake island.

    Sending trade routes exclusively intercontinental is working like a charm, the first one you get with Foreign Trade helped make the wonder (along with some chops), and new cities hit the ground running. Again, some new cities not only send a 4 hammer trade route but also buy a 3F/3P/2S marsh tile. Had a little bit of a holdup getting Education - went unboosted and the first GS was the bad one that boosts 3 classical techs and was happy someone beat me to that. But the second one was Zheng who is my favorite classical GS but already had Celestial nav so passed on him and have been teching around Education. Someone just picked him up and there's Hypatia. Setting sails for Education and missions, this is gonna be fun!
     
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  10. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    Never seen such beautiful desert tiles without a Petra; gotta try it! That's why I play this game: it's not for the early wins or the score - it's for crazy yields - which is why I can't play without SS or Monopolies (even though monopolies are broken forcing me to play with culture off.) on. Question - did you snag Feed the World or running exclusively internal trade routes, cuz that's a lot of 1 food tiles...

    Update: 10 beers in so probably shouldn't post but whatever. Man, I need a new machine! It's turn 120, ONLY 120! And my machine takes forever to next-turn, and then crashes when I click on the screen. I love games of exponential growth; I gave you the per-turn yields at turn 91 and at turn 120 (which seems to be my computer's limit) it's increased to 15 cities, 9 industries, 313 Science (per turn), 318 culture, 309 faith, 1088 gold, with 17 CS trade routes (still fighting for suzereinity, I want ALL of them.) Turned science and culture victories off as was planning on going for a diplomatc win - but now I guess i have to save this game under 'games to finish when I get a better machine' and move on.
     
  11. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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  12. Aa602213x1023

    Aa602213x1023 Chieftain

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    Unfortunately Feed the World and Work Ethic are mutually exclusive. I did pick up Gurdwaras for some extra food, though, and with Wisselbanken and Democracy, my international trade routes helped with growth as well.
     
  13. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    Right! I employed Wisselbanken pretty much the whole time as well to further boost the production; forgot that it adds food too. And Democracy does seem to be the way to go - the problem that I have with Democracy is that I sometimes become reliant on the New Deal card and then can't upgrade to a future government with the new tier, Communism seems to be an easier transition, at least for me.

    Yeah, so I'm gonna try again. I think some of my machine's performance issue may be due to too many map tacks; I saw the Youtubers tournament and it proved to be an issue there, although it was multiplayer. Lots of pins because I was afraid that while that mission science stacks when adjacent to a holy site and a campus, it might not work if adjacent to two campuses or holy sites, so I pinned all over the place to maximize it, and since all cities focused on the trade route districts first (and with secret societies there's two instead of one), the tacks sat there for a long time, and then the island plates map had lots of unsettled islands so there's more pins, I had about 5 pages of pins to scroll down. I'll try again and try to limit my pins. Fingers crossed.

    Overall, I'd say the new Spain is very solid, probably qualifies as OP (then again, with the newer civs like Babylon, Byzantium and Portugal, Spain isn't too far ahead if at all.) I think a proper nerf would be to either reduce the intercontinental trade route multiplier to doubling instead of tripling, or to remove the production bonus from them, I'd prefer the former over the latter. '

    The one complaint that I heard was a lack of synergy as the one bonus requires you to build one set of districts (holy site and campus) while the other bonus requires you to build a different set of districts (harbor or commercial hubs, both with Societies) but I didn't find that to be an issue at all - the trade route bonus is definitely the centerpiece of the Spain kit; my rave of the missions isn't questioning that at all. So after the first 2-4 cities where you plan your districts normally (a good campus or two which he has a start bias to set up, and then enough holy sites to found a religion) future cities all open with a trade route generating district (both with the game mode on) and then plant the holy site and campus in a configuration to make strong missions. Still, it does kind of feel like it's two civilizations worth of bonuses in one, and that's before even considering the leader bonus, the unique unit, and the early armadas... AND THAT SECOND BUILDER AND DISTRICT BONUS!! OMG, snagged mids because of the lucky atamagachi spawn, and then slotted serfdom in and out for 2 6-charge builders in most of my cities - and they could unlock another trade slot so much quicker!

    I didn't go all out with trying to set up six naked tiles around every holy site and campus, did have some mountain and double-district adjacencies, but the missions are strong. The thing about the adjacencies is that the somewhat recent change they made to the district building cards forces you to prioritize the adjacency highly if you plan to utilize them, so you either care a lot about adjacency or not at all. I think with Spain, there's a pretty good consolation prize with mission if you chose to not utilize those cards, which frees up slots for other cards, namely more trade route cards.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
  14. Datian

    Datian Warlord

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    Since you have lots of free builder charges, it makes sense to build missions first, then districts when you have enough population. You don't need to choose immediately, the free builder allows you to delay for a low cost.
     

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