New Strat: Culture Rush

Clutch-3

Chieftain
Joined
Nov 13, 2001
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Hey all, I wanted to share with you a strat I just am working out and see what you all think and if there are any suggestions about improving it. I tried this for the first time in a recent game, on Regent level, all the settings randomized, with 11 AI opponents on a large map. I randomly was given the Russians (expansionistic, scientific)

The goal is to rush to a cultural victory. I thought about doing this and I realized that the amount of culture you make per turn, which is critical, is really bounded only by the number of cities you have. After a city has made the five basic cultural improvements (i'm excluding research lab because it comes so late), it's culture per turn will sit basically at 14/turn unless it builds wonders or if the improvements are very old (through testing i've found that the culture/turn value of a city improvement doubles when it becomes 1000 years old, not sure if this is common knowledge or not). So if you've got a typical empire of 20-30 cities, you're stuck at a max of maybe 300-400 culture per turn. In order to get to 100k culture, it'll take you at least 250 turns. That's too long. In addition, the last few cultural improvements become really costly to build. So the idea is to BUILD MORE CITIES. A LOT more.

Here's a quick narrative of the game I just played with this strat. It should give a rough idea of how I played. In the early game, I would basically make settlers as soon as I knew my city could handle it (i.e. as soon as the settler was projected to build after the city would grow to size 3). Settlers are priority number 1 early, of course. When a settler isn't feasible, a spearman for defense or an exploring unit (scouts for expansionists, warriors otherwise). You want to find your neighbors fast. When you make settlers, you want to expand towards the nearest neighbors, to push your common boundary towards them as far as possible. Make workers when you can, and make roads your first priority. You want to be able to get around your lands fast. Population growth is also important; irrigate the plains and mine the grasslands as usual. Make cities near luxuries if there are any nearby, and connect them to the road network fast. Avoid wars, but be aggressive in taking land. Space your cities as normal, so that they are close but so that their radii won't overlap (i.e. 4-5 squares apart). Build far apart first and fill in the gaps later. You want to expand towards uncontested territory last. DON'T make city improvements, and DON'T make wonders. When it becomes clear where the country boundaries are going to be, grab every last bit of land. This phase of my game ended around 0 AD and I had about 15-20 cities at this point.

After this ends, it's time to switch gears. There will be a lot of land that's probably unappealing (deserts, jungles, mountains). What you want to do now is to build citites EVERYWHERE. You have a fixed amount of land; noe you want to make as many more cities on it as humanly possible. Make cities in between your old cities, so that they have only one square between them (they can't be touching). Make cities all over the mountains and desert, and in jungles. PLAN your cities to fit in as many as possible; using a grid isn't a bad idea. I've attached a save game so you can see what I'm talking about. Try to have about one worker per city working on your empire. Improve everything in sight. DON'T MAKE WONDERS OR IMPROVEMENTS. Don't let your cities get up to a size where they are unhappy; just make more workers and settlers. You want to settle all the way to the edge of your neighbors' cultural borders. Make cities all along the line. Pretty soon your outlying cities will have huge corruption. Use your core of cities near your capital which are non-corrupt to build defensive units and ship one out to each new city. Keep those cities small. During this time, you want to research as normal, keeping commerce high enough to run a surplus. In my game, I managed to make roughly 40 new cities during this period, which lasted roughly 50 turns from 0 AD to 400 AD. At 400 AD I was at about 55-60 cities. When you are getting close to filling up your entire lands, it's time to switch gears again. It's culture time.

The next phase is the build-up of culture. Starting with your outlying cities, you want to start making only cultural improvements; this is the FIRST thing you work on after founding the outside cities; use the core cities to make those defensive guys and send them to new cities. You want to start with the culture producers that give the best bang for your buck; that means temples and libraries. Being a scientific or religious civ makes this a LOT more powerful; I would recommend choosing one or both for this strat. You want all your cities to start with your easiest cultural improvement; for me this was libraries. Use your core cities to finish making enough defensive units to put one in each city. Don't bother upgrading the old ones. In your outlying cities, which will be making a single shield per turn, start on the cultural improvements. Set your commerce to 100% and science to zero. You want to start buying and selling techs, as has been explained in the Pope / Science broker strategies. You need cash big-time; get as much of it as you can out of your rivals by selling techs. Basically you want to just make culture improvements everywhere, and you want to buy as many as possible, starting with the cheap ones, and especially those in the cities on your borders. Buy all the cheap improvements before starting on the more expensive ones. In my game I had managed to make about 40-50 of these by the year 800, which was 40 turns after I started. My gold/turn was at +130 or so (meaning I could buy almost one library or temple per turn) and culture/turn was around 180. Diplomatically, check if your rivals have new techs every several turns and BUY them; then sell em all off. You should keep 600-1000 gold in reserve for this purpose.

There are two other things which are critical to build. You want a forbidden palace ASAP, in a nice grassland/plain area of your empire (it can be close to your capital if you like, but make it at least 8 squares away). This helps your cash flow, which is essential to making those libs/temples. Build it in a city with a lot of potential shields, of course. The second thing you really want when you can build it is Wall Street, which is great for keeping the cash flow positive. When you build this, make sure to keep 1000 gold in your treasury at all times to maximize its effects. Basically, you want to be making 2-3 cultural improvements in your empire each turn, by buying, and by the slow process of building that happens in outlying cities. this will tend to increase your culture/turn by 5-8 points every turn: call it "cultural acceleration". in cities which aren't that corrupt and which are making more than above 5-6 gold per turn, marketplaces and banks are good investments to keep the cash flow up. For comparison in my game, my culture per turn hit 200 in year 820, hit 300 in 990, hit 400 in 1250, and was at 600/turn in year 1425. my gold/turn was increasing by between 110-180/turn this whole time.

But, there's something else. When you start building up, you will be behind in culture (you shouldn't have made any improvements before making your massive number of new cities). But pretty soon, you will rocket past the other civs in culture. In my game I was first in culture 45 turns after I started building up. In 810 the first enemy city defected to join me. Nine more joined over the next 35 turns. Your empire will start to grow via culture. You need to help it. Every time you assimilate an enemy city, you want to immediately move in with settlers and build on the new territory you claimed. Since the enemy civs space their cities normally, you will be able to squeeze in 2-3 more cities in the territory around each new city you gain via culture. You should focus on making the first temple/library in these new cities by rush-building (but always wait at least one turn before rushing something). This will keep your borders growing and your city count rising. I was able to make about 40-45 new cities just in the new lands I gained through culture. Keep your tech up to speed with the other civs, buying techs whenever you can. Nationalism is particularily important because it allows drafting.

i'm gonna run over the length limit (i'm long winded)...so will continue in next post...
 
Basically, the longer this stage of the game goes on, the harder it will be to beat you. Your cities should be happy because they will be small and because you have a lot of temples and caths/cols, and because you should have all cities connected by a road network to the luxuries in our empire (remember one worker per city? that's a lot of workers with 110 cities! keep them improving all game long, use shift-I to automate them if you get bored). if you can build just one library and one temple in each of 110 cities, that's 550 culture/turn right there. your neighbors will be in awe of your culture, making diplomacy easier and decreasing the chance of them declaring war. in my game, no other culture declared war on me after 0 AD. however, this is a concern in the strategy. once you have nationalism, you have the power of creating instantly 100 defensive troops by drafting one unit per city across your empire. don't worry about losing a few cities to an attack; you should have dozens more. and, because your culture is three times as great as all of your rivals, you will probably assimilate any cities you lose pretty quickly anyhow. however, since your culture grows by half its normal rate in war, you want to end the war ASAP. give them whatever you need to, to get them off your back. if all else fails, switch all your production to a barbarian horde strategy, making units in every city, and just overpower them. get back to peace as soon as you can.

once you get the ball rolling and the culture is flowing in, it's hard for the AI to stop you. your empire size will be steadily increasing, and you will be on the way to your 100,000 culture goal. The only other possible problem for this strategy is a diplomatic victory. you are not in a position to be able to build the UN first, but you should have excellent relations with all your neighbors (you can consistently give them your world map or money to improve relations if you are worried about this; since you have no free space anywhere in your empire, they cant run in and make a useless city like they seem to love to do). in my game, someone made the UN in year 1768 but never called a vote. at this time, i had the largest land area (it DOUBLED as a result of cultural gains) and great relations.

by year 1740 i was making 1000 culture per turn and was at 80,000 total, just a few turns away from the goal. even with a very fast tech rate in my game (three civs had started the spaceship by 1760 AD!), i beat them all before they got close to launching. in year 1780 AD i passed 100,000 culture. by the way, since the "power" rating in the histograph takes into account cities and culture, my bar was almost halfway across the board when i won the game, and my score was handily above all the other civs due to my large territory. i finished the game with something like 110 cities, half of which i was able to build with the new land i assimilated. i assimilated 14 enemy cities in all. almost all my cities produced the minimum (1 shield, 1 gold) per turn, but i was running a surplus of >100/turn. i won the game without declaring war, without taking a single city by force, and without researching a single tech after monarchy, which was my gov't for the entire game (which you should switch to ASAP...you could also try out democracy in the late game, though i was afraid of all the rioting that might happen; maybe i'll try it if i play a religious civ). my final score was a bit under 3000. i also never got my golden age, because i didn't want to ruin the peace when i got cossacks.


wow, that was a long a** post. i've attached the save game file just before i won the game in 1778. please let me know what you think works and what could be improved. my next game may be an attempt to beat emperor with this.

happy civving!
clutch:rolleyes:
 
Yeah, that sounds like an interesting strat. Espicaly since I am currently frustrated as hell at enemy cities defecting back after I take them. [punch] Would be nice to give them some back for a change.
 
oops, it was too large a file but i didnt get a notification, i have now attached a zipped version of the final save game. i hope it works now...it's 417k so should be small enuf...
 

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Amazing.

One of the great advances of Civ3 over Civ2....lots of new strategies and tactics to be discovered and developed.
Even if it does need a patch.
 
what happens if you can't get a civ to sell you a wonder related tech?
 
I have noticed that, especially in the late game, civs do sometimes get reluctant to sell techs. i've never seen this happen before the industrial age, at which point you should already be above 300-400 culture/turn at the least. so there's a few options. you can try to switch to democracy and research your own tech (i've actually been trying this in a new game on monarch level, it's not too bad...but i didn't use the culture strategy all the way through, so i don't have as many cities per land area as i would using this strat). the other thing you can do is build up a big army using nationalism or a despot horde strategy and attack someone with the techs and then get them in a peace settlement; this assumes you are able to beat up one of your neighbors without too much fuss.

the final thing you can do is nothing. tech isn't all that important if you know you are gonna hit 100k culture in the next 50-60 turns. you can estimate how long it will take you by finding how far from 100k you are and dividing by your current culture/turn. from my experience, i think the best option is to turn down your commerce rate and start doing your own research, keeping enough commerce flowing to just break even. of course you'll have to stop rush building at this point, but you should be well on the way to the win.

good luck!
clutch
 
sounds good... great strategy clutch!! :goodjob:
I will try this with the Babylons after my go with the Persians.
 
My plan for my next game... Large/continents/chinese. Spread across my own continent by pop rushing, milk AI's I meet for techs then conquer them by flood of pop rushed archers/swordmen/horsemen, riders if wars last long enough, settle the entire continent if possible... stockpile leaders from all the conquering and use them for selectively rushing wonders(Chinese being militaristic I should get at least a few). Try to make contact with the other continent ASAP and heavily trade for techs there. Stay in despotism all the way to communism, then start my own research, and attempt either a cultural or a spaceship victory. Wonder if that will work :)
 
sounds pretty good, gholam. i have also been relying mainly on a combination of the "despot rush" and the cultural victory in my games, which is kinda what you are planning.

however i think everyone should be wary of communism. i have noticed, as have at least two other posters, that it seems to be even more corrupt than monarchy and perhaps even worse than anarchy... i also noticed that if you go into the editor and look at the rates of corruption, communal (which is what communism has) is the WORST rate. i think this may be an oversight by the creators of the game. in any case, monarchy seems to work better than communism for a large number of people.

cheers,
clutch
 
My Thoughts on This Topic
I use a stripped-down version of Clutch's excellent strategy. Actually, it's more of an Island map version. :lol:. Fine a weaker but no less fun idea. I, using the Babylons always (the weak spot), do Culture extreme in my island if i share it with the AI in the inner cities, just to get the kind of bargaining chip i love. With 12 cities with 4 to 17 culture per turn, I turn on Rite of passages for the closest AI, exploiting the AI grabbing all land bug. As he builds cities in my land, they turn over to me, from the culture. Then i usually give them back for about 200 gold each, which i spend on more culture. Eventually i just keep the cities, 1500 gold richer in only 40 or so turns. I build the wonders in my capital. I go for Republic soon as possible and i help the AIs connect their cities together ,always using one of my cities as the connectors ( so i can cripple their transportation if i need to :crazyeyes ). Eventually, using the cities that revolt as money-makers, i can buy and sell strategies, ending with much money at the end. All those improvements in my cities do cost me a lot. Usually -9 gold/turn. But with 150 gold coming in like every turn, who really cares. Maybe this only works with me.
 
One might overlook it, but it's worth noting that the cultural victory can be achieved by having an overall culture score of 100,000 *or* a single city with 20,000.

Getting 20,000 in a city ain't easy, but it does appear to be possible within the constraints of the game. The key is the cultural value of Wonders, and the millenium doubling effect. When any improvement or Wonder in a city reaches 1000 years old, it's cultural value doubles. As a result, it's actually not to hard to get cities with culture values upwards of 50/turn. I'm tinkering with this concept in a game now.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to map the necessary timing out mathematically, because I don't know when the years/turn changes take place. Those are critical, because you have to get some serious culture contributors built early to maximize the doubling.

I have a city at the moment with all the basic city improvements for culture completed before 750 AD. So the improvements generate 19 culture/turn now, (the temple and library are both millenial) and will generate 28/turn by 1750. I'm not sure how many turns are between the two dates, but I think it's in the neighborhood of 150, so figure that's about 3000 CP added from the improvements.

Things get interesting with Wonders added in. I'm not normally a fan of the Great Library, since I like to research Education as fast as possible. But the culture value for the GL is *6*! Since I had it build before 400 AD, it will be generating 12 culture by 1400. I put the Sistine Chapel (also 6) in the same city by 700 AD, so it too will be generating 12 culture by the mid-eighteenth century.

Now we're talking 12+12+28 = 52 culture/turn. I'm also working on Bach's Cathedral, so that will be another 5 culture, and I'll probably put Newton's University in the same city for an additional 6. That's up to 63/turn by 1750, which is a massive growth curve. 200 turns by 2050 will generate 12600 culture by the end of scoring. (Obviously, I'd like to win before that.)

Call it the "megapolis strategy" if you will. One city with tremendous cultural power to establish domination. I don't know it will work yet, because I need to get the exact year/turn transition dates and do the math. I probably needed to start the effort earlier to make it work and since I'm playing the French, I haven't had any leaders emerge yet to help rush those Wonders. I suspect in the end I won't have produced them fast enough. But it's an interesting direction for Civ3.

Key issues are:

1) Building the primary cultural improvements before 700 AD, to ensure millenium doubling effects. If you think about how fast 3000 BC turns into 2000 BC, you can see why getting a temple and library built in a big hurry at the outset of the game is crucial.

2) Selecting Wonders which will add a lot of culture. These include: Sistine (6), Great Library (6), Hanging Gardens (4), Bach (5), Shakespeare (6), Newton (6), Copernicus (4), The Pyramids (4) Heroic Epic (4) and Forbidden Palace (3) (obviously this last only if you aren't doing this in your capital, which will generate the added bonus of your palace)

3) Being willing to rush improvements to get them done early in the game. Waiting an extra 10 turns may sound like no big deal between 750 AD and 850 AD, but later, that will cost *50* turns of double-culture effect. So there's a real planning ahead requirement here.

4) Spending leaders to get those Wonders built early and get the doubling. Every wonder with a "BC" on the construction date will make a huge difference in points generated.

5) Focus on early ages, with realization in late game. All the activity happens basically before the Industrial Age. Your only job after that is to keep the city functioning and picking up new Wonders when you can. Unless you want a back up plan, none of your other cities truly matter. Though it would probably make sense to maximize your military participation in an effort to generate leaders to rush Wonders.

6) Early technology lead so you can beat rivals to the Wonders. Nothing will hurt this approach more than being busy with the Sistine Chapel and losing Bach's Cathedral to another civ. You have to maintain a tech-edge.

Anyway, I didn't really to pursue it as a strat until about 400 AD in my current game, so I have no idea if it will work. (I'm running a back up strat for Spaceship launch.) But I think it's an interesting variation on the culture rush, and might make for a more flexible game. I know I personally hate having to manage hundreds and hundreds of cities (even if governors make it easier).
 
Flynn, that really is a cool idea. I'm just wondering which difficulty level you're playing. Are the years/turn change points different for different difficulty levels? I know they were in Civ2.
 
My current game is Regent level. I've been playing the lower difficulties while I figure out the nuances of the interface and the benefits of certain approaches. I get frustrated fast when I lose, so I don't mind playing at wuss levels for a while. :)

If anyone has those transition dates, it sure would be nice!
 
Hey thanks this sounds like a good strat.
My question is before I wanna try this in a game:
I only play at small and tiny maps and I'm afraid getting 100k of culture is impossible in these maps. Am I right?

This makes me wonder, it is very stupid that the amount of culture points required for victory is same for all map sizes. Makes no sense at all!

But if it would be possible to build that 20k city. Are you sure that only 20k was required for the cultural victory by a city? I thought it was higher.
 
Heya MikaO,

You are right about it being harder to hit 100k culture on smaller maps. On tiny, I'd think this strat wouldn't be useful. On small maps it's feasible but it will require a sizable chunk of the total land available. If you check how much land I had in the savegame I uploaded, it was something like 1/5th of the land on a large map IIRC. So I'd say you'd want 1/3 or even 1/2 of the land on a small map. If you can get that, it might just be easier to go for a domination win. However, a small map also makes it harder for the computer to win via tech or culture, so maybe that would balance it out a bit. Just make sure to snag the UN when it comes around!!

clutch
 
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