New Super League, breaks European football

EgonSpengler

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I think it could work if they do it right, but I'm skeptical. Right now the only time MLS sides meet Mexican sides is in the champions league and other continental competitions. As a result these competitions seem special and unique. It's like a "final boss" sort of situation. You play local clubs in your local league all season, and those few special clubs who qualify for the continental competition end up facing strong Mexican sides. Away games are a whole different game when this happens and home legs have a different feel as well, a sort of.. carnival feel. If MLS sides were facing Liga MX sides every week, that would take away some of that magic and uniqueness of these other competitions IMO.

One idea I've seen thrown around (by fans) was that you'd have Liga MX clubs in their own division and MLS sides in another one. Sort of like American baseball is split into 2 leagues. You'd have occasional inter-league play, but it would be minimal. The top clubs from both leagues would then face off in the playoffs at the end of the year and fight for the North American cup or whatever.

That might work, but it would take away from the magic of the champions league too.. If the playoffs feel the same as the champions league knockout round.. what's the point then? So I'm not really convinced, but I am a bit intrigued, because playing Mexican sides is always fun. Our players seem to relish the opportunity to play against such strong opposition (We just beat the Mexican champions last week, our players are always pumped up for these matches)
The Major League Baseball system isn't one that's worth copying too closely, imo. The two different leagues were established specifically to compete as businesses/leagues, not as a way of sensibly organizing the teams. Baseball's sorting of its teams is kind of artificial, from a sporting perspective. iirc, both the NBA and the NFL absorbed other leagues to become what they are today. If you were building a baseball league from scratch today, you wouldn't divide the teams between AL and NL. You might divide them geographically, though, for logistical/travel reasons. A North American soccer league could be split up into geographical divisions. Maybe it might end up looking more like the NHL or something. I also don't love the NFL's unbalanced schedule, but they have to deal with a sport in which you can't impose too many games on the players. NFL players wouldn't survive a long season, so they just have to deal with that somehow. I would think a 30-team North American soccer league would be doable, with geographical divisions. You probably wouldn't have the elegant, home-and-away series between every team, like you have in 20-team leagues. 58 games sounds excessive. But I think you could have "home-and-away" between teams in a division, and then just 1 game per season against teams in the other divisions, alternating home and away each season (and ensuring that each team has an equal number of home and away games each season, of course). If there were three, 10-team divisions, that would make 38 games for each team.
 

EgonSpengler

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There would be violence in such a league, while afaik US football (soccer) fans are tame.
Mexican and US clubs and national teams play each other regularly, and I'm not aware of any violence between the fans. Quite the opposite, I think. I've heard anecdotally that visiting American fans are treated well at Estadio Azteca (maybe just because we never win there :lol: ). If fans of Mexican clubs get into fights with one another, a 'North American league' wouldn't change that, the Mexican police would still have to deal with whatever they have to deal with now.
 

r16

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when ı was little and like even dumber ı was amazed at some history magazine story about a football match between the teams of the US Army and the now dead Turkish Army Forces . Everybody can guess who won by 19-0 ...
 

warpus

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Toronto fans have travelled to central america and Mexico for heated matches and have had no problems with violence, as far as I know. MLS fans are not "tame", we just aren't hooligans. Supporter groups look down on fans who start trouble and create problems for the club and its image. A couple years ago an entire supporters group was banned from attending Toronto FC matches and even being in the stadium. Members had to take a $500 course and afterwards were allowed to get their season memberships back - but they couldnt' use the old supporter group name or banner. Those who took the course ended up joining another supporters group, and we haven't had problems since. These guys one time set a part of Ottawa's stadium on fire (not on purpose but that doesn't matter) and have picked fights with Montreal supporters and even put one of them in the hospital. This is something the majority of other fans denounced, even though this now banned supporters group always contributed the most amount of noise during matches.

That's the thing about MLS supporter groups - most of them are progressive. Inclusion and diversity are important, you will often see them flying rainbow flags here and there for instance. It's about the beautiful game for us, which is there for everybody.. except for the hooligans. New fans of the league sometimes get the idea that they want to be more like those European hooligans you sometimes hear about.. but they end up banned, ridiculed, or both, and we don't really have a problem with violence in the league as a result.

As for the comparison with baseball @EgonSpengler , I am not a baseball fan really so I don't know much about the league setup. The only reason I mentioned it is because the leagues are sort of split in 2. It's not really something to copy as a format, but there's just a similarity there to something that could maybe work with a MLS/Liga MX merger. Not the exact format, but just the idea that there are 2 distinct leagues/conferences. I do understand that the current state of baseball (with the american and national leagues) is a case of a historical accident moreso than careful planning.
 

Snowygerry

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I am convinced it is billionaires just thinking they can do what they wish, because usually they are right.

Not sure it was too much money that triggered this clearly ill-considered move, it may well have been lack of money...

I found this quote from Perez quite telling :

“If we continue with the Champions League there is less and less interest and then it’s over.

“The new format which starts in 2024 is absurd. In 2024, we are all dead.”

https://citizentv.co.ke/sports/supe...ave-football-madrid-president-perez-10308200/

Now I'm sure "We" will not all be "dead" by 2024, not all sure RM will not be bankrupt by then though.
 

warpus

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Perez is a clown, nobody should ever listen to anything that guy says.

They don't like the new Champions League format because it puts more of the profits in the hands of smaller clubs in the tournament. The big clubs want even more profits because they've shot themselves in the foot with absurd transfer fees they need to pay to keep their squads competitive every season.

German clubs have some of the right approach here. Even big clubs like Bayern put a lot of emphasis on local player development and are not known for big $$ signings. They have proven that this is a sustainable way to run a big club, but of course clubs like RM don't want to hear that, because they are addicted to signing the best players in the world so they can keep selling more jerseys and spreading their brand.
 

GinandTonic

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A lot of these suggestions are far too complicated. Football is a pyramid. Each level of the pyramid needs to have something like 20 teams to provide a season of fixtures. Perhaps in the lower-but-still-professional leagues you can raise the number of teams a little, but at the top there are too many other competitions and at the bottom people have day jobs.

As you move down the pyramid leagues become increasingly localised but at the points where their promotion/ relegation intersect the regional leagues have to be of comparable size.

Celtic and Rangers have been eyeing the prem for decades, but the key problem is that the Scottish league is 10% of the size of the English league. Promotion and relegation would be a mess.

The pyramid works by starting with the top level and then, at points, subdividing. Politically it is unacceptable for either England or Scotland to chop their leagues up. Politically it is unacceptable for the European Leagues to be recarved into 50 millionish consumer population unit leagues.

The Champions League is a mess, but it is trying to square a circle.

At the first thought of trying to group the leagues that could feed into the European League, Scotland would need to join the English League, Portugal would need to join the Spanish League, Greece and the Balkans would need to get in bed together, Benelux would probably need to join France or a Scandi/ Baltic League.

There would be blood on the streets.
 

innonimatu

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Agnelli said he felt the British government’s intervention, with prime minister Boris Johnson threatening legislation to stop the breakaway, had pushed the English clubs to withdraw. “I have had speculation to that extent that if six teams would have broken away and would have threatened the EPL, politics would have seen that as an attack to Brexit and their political scheme,” he said.

Hey look, it's Brexit's fault! :lol:
Had to be either that excuse or the russians...

The one true thing is that the political intervention was the thing which killed this so quickly.
 

mitsho

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A lot of these suggestions are far too complicated. Football is a pyramid. Each level of the pyramid needs to have something like 20 teams to provide a season of fixtures. Perhaps in the lower-but-still-professional leagues you can raise the number of teams a little, but at the top there are too many other competitions and at the bottom people have day jobs.

As you move down the pyramid leagues become increasingly localised but at the points where their promotion/ relegation intersect the regional leagues have to be of comparable size.

Celtic and Rangers have been eyeing the prem for decades, but the key problem is that the Scottish league is 10% of the size of the English league. Promotion and relegation would be a mess.

The pyramid works by starting with the top level and then, at points, subdividing. Politically it is unacceptable for either England or Scotland to chop their leagues up. Politically it is unacceptable for the European Leagues to be recarved into 50 millionish consumer population unit leagues.

The Champions League is a mess, but it is trying to square a circle.

At the first thought of trying to group the leagues that could feed into the European League, Scotland would need to join the English League, Portugal would need to join the Spanish League, Greece and the Balkans would need to get in bed together, Benelux would probably need to join France or a Scandi/ Baltic League.

There would be blood on the streets.

To a degree that is brilliantly put, to a degree that is nonsense. The system where the national leagues of the last year are the qualifications for the international leagues of the current year works quite well. It is just that group phase + elimination phase is better suited for a month long tournament (national teams at European/World Cup) and not a tournament that runs along a whole season. So if you replace it with large enough groups - say groups of 8 or 10 teams and have a shorter elimination round at the end (a tournament style over few weeks and one-off games f.e.) that could work. Now you have your „league“ and can keep the national one as well. Just organise those group of tens/eights according to their strength and slot the clubs either by country or team coefficient. That way, the rank in the league tells you if you play in Europe or no, while the success of your club over the laft 5 or 10 years tells you where you are going to play. In short: the rankings work - somehow.

What really is killing the smaller clubs is the qualification stage happening over the summer. It‘s less the games per se, but the uncertainty accompanying it. We always were better when we knew in May where we would play (say CL group phase) than wen we had to play 2-4 rounds over 8 weeks in the summer to get to the same place. So, allow more teams straight to a larger group phase please, even if they don‘t get prize money for it.

Sorry for rambling again, I just so would love to have some deciding powere here instead of these apparent morons (;-)) that can decide them. No matter that they probably have a lot more information than I do... ;)
 

GinandTonic

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To a degree that is brilliantly put, to a degree that is nonsense. The system where the national leagues of the last year are the qualifications for the international leagues of the current year works quite well. It is just that group phase + elimination phase is better suited for a month long tournament (national teams at European/World Cup) and not a tournament that runs along a whole season. So if you replace it with large enough groups - say groups of 8 or 10 teams and have a shorter elimination round at the end (a tournament style over few weeks and one-off games f.e.) that could work. Now you have your „league“ and can keep the national one as well. Just organise those group of tens/eights according to their strength and slot the clubs either by country or team coefficient. That way, the rank in the league tells you if you play in Europe or no, while the success of your club over the laft 5 or 10 years tells you where you are going to play. In short: the rankings work - somehow.

What really is killing the smaller clubs is the qualification stage happening over the summer. It‘s less the games per se, but the uncertainty accompanying it. We always were better when we knew in May where we would play (say CL group phase) than wen we had to play 2-4 rounds over 8 weeks in the summer to get to the same place. So, allow more teams straight to a larger group phase please, even if they don‘t get prize money for it.

Sorry for rambling again, I just so would love to have some deciding powere here instead of these apparent morons (;-)) that can decide them. No matter that they probably have a lot more information than I do... ;)

I was referring to the comments about a Euro League. That would require the pyramid to continue to a continental level. As for tinkering with the part time bodge that is the Champs League I agree with you, there is a lot that could be done to improve matters.

The problem is what the big clubs really want is a full on Euro League. The prem is their model, but the prem has never managed to get Celtic and Rangers in for the same reasons that make a full blown Euro league impractical.
 

mitsho

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Yes, I think what these 24 hours at the start of the week have shown is that even the 12 clubs want to keep the national leagues going as they are now. And that the „european“ games are just some sort of cherry on top. That is also important for the question of when to play these games (weekend versus mid-week).
 

GinandTonic

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Yes, I think what these 24 hours at the start of the week have shown is that even the 12 clubs want to keep the national leagues going as they are now. And that the „european“ games are just some sort of cherry on top. That is also important for the question of when to play these games (weekend versus mid-week).

I thought they were paving the way for a Euro-Prem as an actual league. This is why people reacted so furiously to the lack of promotion/ relegation. Not so much the cherry on top as the meat of the dish.
 

mitsho

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I thought they were paving the way for a Euro-Prem as an actual league. This is why people reacted so furiously to the lack of promotion/ relegation. Not so much the cherry on top as the meat of the dish.

No, the Super League was set up as an alternative to the Champions League, not the Premier League/La Liga/Serie A. But the counter threat by UEFA was swift and so it was quite clear for everybody that the 12 clubs would be thrown out of their national league and that was one reason why they backed down. Now, could UEFA have done all the threats it made in those 24h? Nobody knows, but it worked. You see, the end result would have been the same: the super league being on its own. But the actual proposal sent out on Sunday Midnight was designed to be additional to the national leauges...
 

GinandTonic

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No, the Super League was set up as an alternative to the Champions League, not the Premier League/La Liga/Serie A. But the counter threat by UEFA was swift and so it was quite clear for everybody that the 12 clubs would be thrown out of their national league and that was one reason why they backed down. Now, could UEFA have done all the threats it made in those 24h? Nobody knows, but it worked. You see, the end result would have been the same: the super league being on its own. But the actual proposal sent out on Sunday Midnight was designed to be additional to the national leauges...

It has been widely interpreted that the end goal of the project was a super-flight. I understand that is not what the clubs stated. This is why people have reacted with such hostility.

Perhaps this difference in interpretation is why people have reacted so differently here. CFF is honestly the only place I've heard anything but fury at the proposals.
 

mitsho

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But that „end goal“ is the same with the Champions League, no? Or at least that‘s the direction the recent reforms all had. I also haven‘t heard any positive reactions in real life, local media or on local forums. I however did get many „eh“-responses in the sense that it really doesn‘t affect us anyways, since we are not in one of the top 5 nations anyway (nor are FC Porto or Ajax Amsterdam who got named as candidates as well).

I guess that could be a difference: This has been the first time that the English fans got wind of that harsh wind blowing, whereas outside the top 5 nations, we‘ve been exposed to it for a long long time now. The slow expulsion out of the Champions League and now even the Europa League. Because to get back, the Champions League already is quite similar to a closed league, it just might not have been obvious until now to many.
 

Kyriakos

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A lot of these suggestions are far too complicated. Football is a pyramid. Each level of the pyramid needs to have something like 20 teams to provide a season of fixtures. Perhaps in the lower-but-still-professional leagues you can raise the number of teams a little, but at the top there are too many other competitions and at the bottom people have day jobs.

As you move down the pyramid leagues become increasingly localised but at the points where their promotion/ relegation intersect the regional leagues have to be of comparable size.

Celtic and Rangers have been eyeing the prem for decades, but the key problem is that the Scottish league is 10% of the size of the English league. Promotion and relegation would be a mess.

The pyramid works by starting with the top level and then, at points, subdividing. Politically it is unacceptable for either England or Scotland to chop their leagues up. Politically it is unacceptable for the European Leagues to be recarved into 50 millionish consumer population unit leagues.

The Champions League is a mess, but it is trying to square a circle.

At the first thought of trying to group the leagues that could feed into the European League, Scotland would need to join the English League, Portugal would need to join the Spanish League, Greece and the Balkans would need to get in bed together, Benelux would probably need to join France or a Scandi/ Baltic League.

There would be blood on the streets.

I am sure a balkan league would be even more violent than England in the 80s.

Besides, the football teams here don't matter. Rarely did a couple of local clubs get as far as the semi-final (iirc also to the final one time, but probably due to heavy bribes) of a major euro club tournament.

If you throw enough money, however, and have some symbolic tie to the sport, you can get nations of the size of Greece dominate a reasonably popular sport. That happened with basketball, for something like two decades here; it used to be the richest league in Europe, attracting even known names from the NBA.
 

warpus

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It has been widely interpreted that the end goal of the project was a super-flight. I understand that is not what the clubs stated. This is why people have reacted with such hostility.

Perhaps this difference in interpretation is why people have reacted so differently here. CFF is honestly the only place I've heard anything but fury at the proposals.

The initial goal was to have a closed SuperLeague with midweek (IIRC) matches between these "Super" clubs, who would then return to their regular leagues and compete in their regular tournaments on the weekends or whenever. This Super League would not have any sort of promotion or relegation, and a bunch of the clubs would always compete in this league no matter what, while (5?) others would be invited on a season by season rotating sort of basis.

However, UEFA and/or FIFA said that if this went ahead, the clubs would be kicked out of their respective leagues. If that happened, the Superleague would have clubs that play nowhere else.

Do I have this right?
 

r16

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stopped JP Morgan right away . Though ı think the games were to be at summertime ?
 
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