New to BTS, need (serious) help...

Moohbear

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Messages
9
I restarted playing Civ4 recently and got the BTS extension. I totally lost now. I'll try to enumerate what's going wrong, but I'm not sure I understand it really.
I've played a few games, I'm using standard map (continents), standard game from the play now menu, on Noble difficulty. I've tried several civs and I think I like Augustus Caesar more (although I'm not averse to using somebody else if it fits my style better). I like him because of the Industrious/Imperialistic traits, and the Praetorians.

Okay, now, what's going wrong:
- I can expand my civ to 6 cities if I rush a little, meaning at the expense of building early wonders (no Stonehenge, no Oracle).
- But, I end up with the upkeep killing me. I need to put 10% in espionage just to avoid the AI ruining my empire with it. My science % dive quickly to 40-50% at best. I try to develop my cities (building cottages to get my economy going), but it doesn't seem to help at all.
- So, by the 1200, I'm behind the AI 4-5 tech. They don't like me because I don't have any religion, or worse, a different religion (since I don't found any, I get whatever my neighbours get).
- Quickly, one of my neighbours asks for tribute and then invades. As my tech is lagging, I can contain them, but I can't counter-attack (and my other neighbour is waiting at the border anyway). I get stuck is a stalemate that only makes me lag even more (war is expensive)

On the other end of the spectrum:
-I develop my empire more instead of rushing to 6 cities. I get quickly surrounded by the AI and I'm stuck with a small territory and 4 cities. My economy is still weak and my science/production output cannot match the one of my neighbours.
-They ask for tribute and then invades...

Rinse and repeat.

Things I'm baffled with is how the AI can expand quickly, yet still have a productive empire and build wonders and an army. I can two of those things, but not all four. Is it possible to see what the AI is doing and take notes? I just don't understand how it can do it (and even less how players in this forum can easily beat the game at higher difficulty level). I've read a lot of the articles and I've tried to use the advices I've read, but to no avail.

So, to conclude, how do I balance growth, development, military and still build some wonders? I feel I'm grossly misunderstanding the game, but I can't find how. Please help, I use to like the game, but I'm getting so frustrated that I'm about to give up.:(
 
It seems your economy is under-developed, but from what you write it's a bit hard to tell the exact reason...

As you are also beeing out-spied - never heard about that happen so early in a game - perhaps you did not built Courthouses in your cities ?

Not enought Workes might be a problem as well, so your new cites are developing too slowly.

Maybe you should post a savegame, so people can take a look and give better advice.

Also:
Do you alredy know the strategy guide for beginners ?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=165632
 
I restarted playing Civ4 recently and got the I've tried several civs and I think I like Augustus Caesar more (although I'm not averse to using somebody else if it fits my style better). I like him because of the Industrious/Imperialistic traits, and the Praetorians.


- But, I end up with the upkeep killing me. I need to put 10% in espionage just to avoid the AI ruining my empire with it. My science % dive quickly to 40-50% at best. I try to develop my cities (building cottages to get my economy going), but it doesn't seem to help at all.


I personally don't think Augustus Caesar is a very good leader. Ind is not very useful since wonders shouldn't have such a high priority unless playing a "special" game. Imp is quite weak, too. If you want Praetorians, I ALWAYS choose Julius Casear.

Also, in a typical, Monarch level game, I never raise the espionage slider above 0%. Like, never. You shouldn't have to, and how does the AI ruin your empire? I have never experienced AI's ruining my empire with spies.

If you build a lot of cottages, but not enough farms, you will not have the population to support this. If you build 10 cottages in the fat cross of a population 1 city, it will do you practically no good whatsoever. It's hard to tell what the problem is if you build a lot of cottages but cannot keep up in research (saves and screenshots would benefit greatly--this should be a new rule implemented on this forum in my opinion for people asking general help).
 
Defo chose a diffeent leader, perhaps darius, mucho cash and if you get those horses up really son and build nothing but immortals for a bit, before even barracks then a stack of 6-8 or so should take 2-3 cities. You have to get them going before your apponent can build spears or you are buggered. This is at the expense of wonder.

This is an example of early war but axes are the calssic early rush unit. Research bronze working early and chop out what you need from your capital, yes even before maths make it better, but perhapse save a few forests. Why build settlers and stuff, and even wonders when you can steal them. 3-4 cities early on is fine, probably only 2-3 by the time of your first war if you get hooked up copper early.

Like refar said workers very important and are the first build in the first 2-3 cities, lots use worker, settler, worker in the capital as the first three builds, Though I usually just do worker settler then maybe chop out great wall really early if I can or get to the immortals if I am darius as at the moment on my first Monarch game.

Well thats a war mongers perspective anyway, don't get too hung up on those wonders, build troops instead and for the cost of an early wonder you can take a city or two, that might even have a wonder in if you are lucky.
 
I'm just curious I usually build warriors/scouts until my capital is 3 then go with worker settler and then whatever else is appropriate.

Is this waiting too long to get my expansion going?

I'm in a similar boat Moohbear I've only come even remotely close to winning in 1 out of about 10 games on noble after just jumping to BTS, so don't feel like your all alone out there.
 
Supersive said:
I'm just curious I usually build warriors/scouts until my capital is 3 then go with worker settler and then whatever else is appropriate.

Is this waiting too long to get my expansion going?

Yes, by quite some way. In most circumstances beginning with a worker on turn 1 is best. The three notable exceptions:

1)You start on the coast, with a seafood tile in the fat cross, and start with the Fishing tech. A workboat is better here.

2)You are going for Buddhism or Hinduism, and start with no techs that allow you to improve your nearby tiles. Killing time with a warrior or scout may be better here.

3)You are playing as Huayna Capac and are going for an ultra early Quecha rush.
 
First, bear in mind that Noble isn't "super easy starting level." It's also where I started, but there is Settler, Chieftan and Warlord below it. By sheer "feel" I would say Noble feels like the stiff side of Civ2's "Prince" even though in Civ4 it is the step below. Subjective of course.

Second, 6 cities is a fairly large number for an "Early Rex," that is, early rapid expansion strategy. Depending on your Leader/Civ combo it can strain your economy somewhat. If you read Sisiutil's strategy guide (which I strongly suggest) you'll see that the norm is to go for 4-5 cities as your situation warrents if you're going that route, trying to keep your Sci slider at 60 or above while your other sliders (Well, once you have them) at 0.

You can allow the game to do that itself as you run out of money, or you can do it manually if you want some cash in pocket (depends on whether you want random events.)

What you need to understand is

1. You were playing a fairly weak leader
2. Your expansion was at the limit of what can be done without economic woe, so any misteps may have hobbled you and
3. You oughtn't have touched that Esp slider from the sounds of things.

If you want to stay at noble you may want to consider picking fairly sedentary opponents (Gandhi, Frederick, Washington, Lincoln, eg) manually and unlocking your own leader/civilization combo so that you can pick something really overpowered like Elizabeth, William, Hannibal or Huayna Capac while still getting your Praetorians. Also, adopt a worker-first build policy to get cottages and resources handled as quick as possible in your empire, and try to expand with a sense of economic necessity.

It can help to look at some of the 'city siting' threads to learn what's important (Rivers, good bonus tiles, sea access, relative proximity to capital) so that you're spending the high cost of city maintenance on the best-sited cities you can find. Additionally, when you get Code of Laws don't neglect courthouses to bring city maintenance down.

Lastly, there are circumstances where you just won't get a good start for a peaceful rapid expansion. More advanced players will often "axe rush" in this situation by beelining to bronze-working and devoting their entire civ to an early hit-job on a neighboring civ, razing its crummy city(ies) and keeping the capital, which is generally a gorgeous city site. Because this involves both a very purposeful playstyle and a 'recovery period' afterwards, it may be a bit too challenging in the first few games, and you might consider restarting if you find yourself too boxed in to found 4-5 cities peacefully.

EDIT: 5 other starting pointers.

1. The strategy articles forum (off the Civ4 Strategy forum) is a very valuable resource.
2. Not getting a starting religion isn't that serious. It has drawbacks as well as advantages, since your own religion will be more likely to aggrevate other leaders.
3. Happiness is more important than health (rebel citizens sucking back food instead of merely less food)
4. Don't continually change civics unless you're spiritual; anarchy turns are costly.
5. AIs will not like you if your only contact with them is refusing their occasional stupid demand. To actively cultivate them you need to make deals with them; resource trades, tech trades, tech sales, etc.
 
Go to unrestricted leaders (custom game), stick with Rome and choose either Darius (Fin/Org) for cheap courthouses, or Ragnar (Fin/Agg), for some good warmongering units.

Don't overlook the possibility of building some warring units of your own, burning your enemy's cities to the ground, and living off the gold. It's good times.
 
Lots of good advice in the above replies.

I normally play on Monarch level all random and in with a shout at a win most times, more of a builder but do like some short sharp wars when there is benefits to be had.

Recently I tried a number of games same starting position, trying REX to around 6-7 cities found the science drops very quickly and then it is really really hard and slow to get it back up to around 60-70%, in the meantime neighbours were much more powerful which then made me more of a target.

Had to build Army's to try to ward of attacks which put more strain on bank balance , eventually almost in the RED and striking units a possibility.

In short to much early expansion and cities will kill everything else off in a short period of time. 3 or 4 good cities in good positions are 100 times better than 6-7 crappy cities costing a small fortune in maintenance
 
I haven't saved any of the games as they were lost pretty early (after an hour or so). I've restarted a game last evening and I got really lucky, so things went very well (so far at least). My capital had stone in its initial border. I was on a fairly large continent, alone with Hannibal. With the stone, I was able to push out the Pyramids, Stonehenge and the Oracle (and got CoL with it). As Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism were not founded on my continent, Confucianism become (with almost no help) the state religion for Hannibal and me. I expanded more slowly, keeping my research above 60% all the time. I have 7 cities and I'm leading the scoreboard. I've built a several more wonders (Versailles, Parthenon, Spiral Minaret, Statue of Zeus) and my economy is doing okay. I'm running 6/1/1 for now. I don't have a tech lead, Joao II has it. The other civs are Ragnar and Isabella. I think Ragnar is going to attack me. He's behind in tech, but his military is stronger than mine. I'm also worried of Isabella, as we have different religions (but she's last). One civ was destroyed early, I don't who it was and who killed them.

Now, for espionnage, in my very first game I didn't touch it and the AI kept sabotaging my improvements, so I started running 10% in my next game and it seemed to stop it.
The "typical" game I get with the settings I'm using is the following: start on a continent with 2 neighbors and both expand relatively fast. If I try to follow them in the land grab, I end up with 6 cities before our borders meet and then, getting more cities (for me or them) means war (which they usually start). But my economy is in the ground. If I concentrate on developing my cities, I have 4 cities by the time our borders meet, and they still declare war in me as soon as they're ready. Religion is also a PITA in general. In the best case, there's none on the continent, but often, there are 2 (not founded by me) and each of my neighbors has a different one. So, no matter what I choose, I'm pissing off one of them. Adding to that my either lagging development or small size, one jumps on me at the first opportunity (and the other guy, my brother of the faith, doesn't come to help...).

For the axe rush, I'm familiar with it and executed several in vanilla Civ 4. Now, with chariot countering axemen, it's not that easy anymore. Plus, I was never too happy with it. it's very taxing on the early development, especially in standard game. By the time the rush is over, the other civs (not on the continent) are well ahead. The distance to cross is just to big. Now, on Marathon, that's a better gamble.
 
As noted above, try worker-first economy, make all your military units (for barbs) from one city with a barracks rather than everywhere, and settle smart - learn the city maintenance formulae, try to block off an area if possible (refusing open borders is no big deal) and then backfill hopefully for 6 cities. (Allowing things like Globe, Oxford.)

Use a strong leader, don't even bother with religion at all, and don't be afraid to have some tiles overlap if you just can't seem to get 5-6 cities up otherwise. In the early game it's immaterial; there's some discussion of this on the forums.
 
Do you guys find its better to go a worker right off the box and slow down city growth instead of going a warrior first, getting your city to 2, and then going workers with some more resources?
 
As noted above, try worker-first economy, make all your military units (for barbs) from one city with a barracks rather than everywhere, and settle smart - learn the city maintenance formulae, try to block off an area if possible (refusing open borders is no big deal) and then backfill hopefully for 6 cities. (Allowing things like Globe, Oxford.)

Use a strong leader, don't even bother with religion at all, and don't be afraid to have some tiles overlap if you just can't seem to get 5-6 cities up otherwise. In the early game it's immaterial; there's some discussion of this on the forums.

My problem is I already know all this, but I can't get things to click most of the time. What is a strong leader? And what's wrong with industrious and imperialistic?
Anyway, I won my last game with a space victory in 2026. I was very lucky, I started with Hannibal on the smaller continent (roughly 1/3 of the land) while the 5 other civs started on the second continent. They kept fighting each other: Napoleon+Ragnar+Isabella+Buddhism+Hinduism=to busy to bother me...
 
There's nothing wrong with Industrious and Imperialistic as such, but the others are better choices, especially when you're first learning the games.

To get full use out of Industrious, you need to know the impact a wonder will have on your game and shoot for it. You also need to know the value of cheap Forges which allow you to run an engineer specialist that much sooner.

Imperialistic gets its full use through quicker great generals -- but a new player can better learn warmongering through choosing aggressive/charismatic.

As you go up in difficulty levels, wonder-building is less and less viable. There is also only so long that quicker settler production is going to help you out (depending on map type).
 
I'm just curious I usually build warriors/scouts until my capital is 3 then go with worker settler and then whatever else is appropriate.

Is this waiting too long to get my expansion going?

I'd say so. I always start with a Warrior then build a Settler to create my first city. By the time the Warrior is done, the city is at size 2. Starting with a Worker as some people suggest usually doesn't work well for me since I always bee-line for Archery and quite often my first Worker ends up with nothing to do.
 
Supersive, I saw this was your first post, and was about to welcome you to the forums. Then I saw you have been a member for >2 years. :eek:

So, I'll just welcome you to actively posting, and hope you will keep on. :goodjob:
 
Worker-first does presuppose that you research the relevant tech for a worthwhile improvement in your city radius as soon as the worker is done, assuming you don't start with it. I essentially do it because worthies in these forums seemed to conclude it was best, and when I tried it it worked well. I assume the logic on doing it before reaching city size 2 is that the food going to the worker and the resources from the improvement get you to 3 quicker; I can't say I've ever done the math, but I do know worker first works quite well on noble.

EDIT: Aaaand I was talking to an old-timer, never mind me.

Regarding leaders - as Bandobras said, there are better builder and warmongerer trait combos available. Fin is the most obvious tech for anyone using cottages, and Elizabeth's Fin/Phi combo is great if you plan to make a Great Person farm or just want to get great people that much quicker. (Some more advanced players wishing to 'take the strongest traits' consider Fin/Phi to be unforgivably generalist, but that's of little concern to us mortals. I prefer Chm as a warmongering tech because of the ancilliary benefit of extra happiness.

Have you had ok relations with AIs? Eschewing religion and getting some positive bonuses from trades can make all the difference; when I started out I basically only talked to them when they were annoying me for things I wouldn' give them - as a result I wound up getting dogpiled too often. There is of course always a risk of this when you have sociopaths like Monty and Ragnar, who'll cheerfully invade you with great relations.
 
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