New Unit Storage/Fuel/Ammo Ability

[yoshi]

Not bad.
One thing I fail to understand is how the limiting mechanism works. As If the mechanism limits the units to areas that aren't shaded, then that would mean that this is more of a 'distance' modfier rather than a supply modifier. In other words, there is no need for units to literally resupply in cities/fortresses/airbases. So essentially mobility wouldn't be limited within the range of the unit --unit would be able to move ad eternum but only within 'unshaded squares.'
Granted, this is not what I was proposing but it would at least prevent units from crossing the globe, which is really what I was after apart from the startegic elements and is something that afflicts the core game. Startegy is increased as units still require a base of operations.

There is still the resource element though. Part of the reason for having units resupply is to make them dependent on resources (in the case of mechanized units). Although they are still dependent where building is concerned, once built they cease to be dependent on resources. I can't see any way around this.

There is the problem of movement modifiers. Using my supply system, Road movement gives the unit more range. Likewise, different terrain results in varied unit movement. Under your system, tile differences have no effect on unit range. Panzer General 3D uses a similar system only differences in terrain/Roads are taken into account.

One other thing. When units get 'cut off,' they just stop? Do they disband after x number of turns? I didn't get this part.

The idea of just limiting movement into squares beyond that limited by the unit's range needs some work but I think it would have better chances of being implemented because programmers don't have to worry about getting the AI to take supply limitations into account. Additionally, there wouldn't be so much unit micromanagement invlolved.

Good idea. I'm glad you brought it up.

 

[snowmelk]

Yes, my idea needs some work. I didn't spent much thinking on it before I wrote the post.

Units don't need to be just grounded when cut off supply. What about losing on HP each turn or something like that?

My idea was indeed that units shouldn't have to go to cities or supply centers regularily. I think this is what most people would upset, especially in the late game with many units. If you have to move your troops more often to resupply than to combat, many people wouldn't like it (at least that's my feeling).
My idea was that the supply is done by the famous little invisible men as long as the units stay in their range. When they get out of supply range, they get grounded, loose HP's, both or anything else you might imagine.
Maybe motorized units get grounded (no fuel, no movement), foot units can still move, but loose HP's (because of deserting people).
Best of all, as usual, would be an editor where everyone can choose his personal solution...

 

[yoshi]

You're right about players not wanting the added unit micromanagement. The reason why I bring up the resupply thing is because of resources. If a civ gets cut off from its fuel resource (Tanks need Oil), what happens? There should be some penalty. Decreased range of unit requiring that resource perhaps?

To give you an idea: in a Civ2 scenario, I had 'Panzer' units upgrade to 'Panzer (Low Fuel)' units that have less movement if certain 'fuel cities were lost by the Germans' --if you've used Civ2 Events.txt then you can probably imagine how I did this. It's clearly a primitive method. Civ3 should offer a better system.

 

[Commander Bello]

I agree that a more sophisticated supply element would add more depth to the game.
Nevertheless, realism has to be balanced with fun.
Of course, 'little trucks' would be the most realistic feature. But, I guess, we will never experience this in a game like CIV. First of all, it would drive most players crazy (including myself - I'm currently fighting an intercontinental war versus the Arabs, the Mongols, the Russians and somewhere there is still one Persian town.... currently I have 250 units to manage, appr. 150 of them somewhere far away from home. No way to send the 'little trucks' to each unit in time).
Second, this would be very hard to program, I guess.
One idea of course would be to add a 'refuel' capability to fortresses or to add 'supply depots' to the game. These 'supply depots' could have a radius of let's say 5 tiles, in which the units would be automatically refueled / supplied / healed / whatever. The calculation of this radius could be subject to the movement penalty of terrain, with streets / railroads having a modificator of 1, plains would have one of 2 and so on. (This could cause the need for a re-adjustment of movement costs in the game, obviously)
The radius could be visualized by a dotted line like the national borders - this would be everything but an effort for the programmers, I guess. As it was already said, within your own borders, supply would not be of interest.
In my eyes, only units dependant on Saltpeter and / or fuel (oil) would be dependant from these supply depots - think of the Huns (no, not the Germans as of WW1 - the historical ones, who built an empire from the west of China to the area we now know as Hungary). So, the supply depots would come into the game as soon as gunpowder is invented.
What could get complicated then would be, if the areas of 'supply depots' of different nations overlap. It could be rather confusing, if the dotted lines would overlap.
On the other hand, one could use an algorithm similar to the one of the cultural influence. This time, the overall military strength of the nations involved would determine which tile would be 'supplied' by which nation. The stronger nation would have it's whole radius, the weaker one.... sorry, no supply at this tile.
For naval units I would plead for not making them subject to this restrictions. I guess, it would be far to complicated for both the player as well as the AI to handle the supply line simulation.
When I started typing, I had the idea of units having a certain amount of ammo / fuel (triggered by mentioning Panzer General) 'onboard'.
The more I think about it the more I have to come to the conclusion that this wouldn't be manageable. Each time you move more than one unit, you would have to check each single unit in the stack to be moved for having enough supply. This would cause errors thus frustrating the player... Not a good idea...

 

[yoshi]

Some very good points.

First let me say that yes, 'little trucks' would be kind of cool (as long as they didn't clog up the map too much), especially if you could assign them to continuously re-supply specific units. But if you think the turns are long now just think how long they would be with thousands of supply trucks running around!
Your right, realism definitely has its limits.

The 'Supply Depot' idea is good (I think snowmelk mentioned something about this as well). Just like Air Bases essentially extend the range of air units by allowing them to operate further a field, Supply Depots would extend the range of ground units beyond the supply area provided by cities.

I figure that cities provide should automatically re-supply (i.e. you don’t have to build a ‘Supply Depot’ city improvement). That simplifies things and keeps with the air unit analogy. There should however be a ‘Fuel Depot’ city improvement. This allows motorized units to re-supply. Supply Depots MUST be connected to a city with a Fuel Depot if it is to provide motorized unit with range. Likewise the supplying city MUST be connected to the required resource. Note: this should also apply to Air Bases so that Air units can’t just re-supply there at no cost, thus allowing for an obvious exploit. (See below.)
The Fuel Depot’s maintenance represents the costs associated with transferring the resource to the supply area. Although…technically you could just connect all your Supply Depots to the only city with a Fuel Depot. The easiest way past this that I can think of is to limit the number of Supply Depots that are covered by a single resource.

Now that I’m on the subject, there should be a limit to how many cities can use a single resource. The limit means that although you may connect the resource to a higher number of cities than the limit, only the first cities up to the limit will be able to use the resource. For example:
1 Oil resource can be used by the first 10 cities to be connected to it.
If the limit is 10 then an 11th city will not be able to use the resource even if it is connected to the resource by Road.
That means you will need a second Oil resource to add the 11th city.

The problem mentioned about overlapping range limits can be easily dealt with by having the Supply Limit Line (that would be the ‘dotted line’) warp to meet the unit’s range and taking terrain into account when a particular unit is selected –if no unit is selected, then the supply limit line doesn’t appear at all. In other words, the same effect you get when you select an air unit only in the case of ground units, the line may be further away or closer based on the terrain movement cost.

The problem with that is what happens if you have Railroad? Then the limit line would appear all along the length of the Railroad (which could be half the map). Not that this would be a problem, but it wouldn’t look as aesthetic as the air unit range limit line.

The simplest way would be to have the supply limit line appear exactly the same way it does for air units thus ignoring terrain movement cost. In other words, if a unit with Range=8 is selected the supply limit line will appear at 8 squares from the unit in every direction regardless of differences in terrain (i.e. just like it does for air units).

The only difference between the air unit range limit and the ground unit supply limit line is that the latter can mesh with the lines extending from other Cities/Supply Depots/Fortresses (i.e. just like Cultural Borders do when they touch).

This wouldn’t be as realistic in that it doesn’t take the benefits of Roads giving greater range or difficult terrain into account, but it really simplifies things a lot and makes the system more user-friendly. Just to make it a little realistic, I think Roads and Railroads should be immune to the Range limitations (i.e. a unit use RR to travel beyond the supply limit line but cannot move away from the Railroad unless it enters another supply area). This ensures that RRs don’t become an exploit –they are only used to move unit between supply areas. It also means that there’s far less work for designers to modify the limit line system used for borders and air units –it just means that the air unit range gets applied to land units, is dependent on cities and functions like borders, nothing more. If you don’t mind, I think I’ll go with this simpler version. It sells better, and I would really like to see supplies implemented into Civ3 at some point.


I’ll go over the basics of this concept as envisioned thus far:

Units:
Ground units are limited to moving within the area set by the Range field in the Editor’s ‘Units’ window. Units cannot move beyond the lines outlining this area.
When a unit with the Land/Sea domain is selected, its supply limits appear. Note: the limit lines appear extending from every City, Fortress and Supply Depot on the map simultaneously (a unit travelling along Road can move anywhere within those supply limits within a turn –as long as the various lines are connected; if there is a gap, the unit cannot move to the other square unless Road connects them).
This is an example of Road connecting two supply areas:

000000000000000000
011111000000111110
011111000000111110
011C1U-->---11C110
011111000000111110
011111000000111110
000000000000000000

C = City/Fortress/Supply Depot
U = Unit (range = 2)
1 = Supply Area
0 = Beyond Supply area
-->-- = RR/Road

Some units (usually ships) have the ability to go beyond the supply area without the use of Railroads. If a unit goes beyond the supply area or the supplying city/fort./depot is cut off, the unit will gradually lose health until finally disbanding. In the case of motorized units, they will also lose movement. For instance, if a Foot unit is airdropped onto a square that is outside its supply area, it will begin to lose health from the moment it is dropped –air units usually have a greater range than ground unit so this would be something you would want to keep an eye on.

Note: unit supply areas that overlap enemy supply areas will be unaffected --will not stop at enemy borders either.

Additionally, a unit without the ability to go beyond its supply area cannot attack an enemy unit that is outside the area even if the enemy unit is right next to the line. However, it can bombard the enemy unit.


Cities/Fortresses/Supply Depots:
A city always provides supply to units. A Fortress must be connected via Road to a city in order to extend the supply area. If the selected unit requires a ‘fuel’ resource, the connected city must in turn be connected to the required resource. The only difference with the Supply Depot is that it can provide supply to non-motorized units without being connected to a city. Although a Supply Depot must be connected to a city with access to the required resource in order to provide supply to motorized units, it can continue to supply those units for a certain number of turns even after the resource has been cut off (i.e. ‘stores’ resources). The ‘Fuel Depot’ city improvement has the same effect (i.e. city functions as if resource were present for certain number of turns after city has been disconnected from resource).


If this concept were applied to Civ3, a neat addition would be to give the Guerrilla unit no range limitation thus imitating its independence on supplies (i.e. lives off the land). Would give the unit a special kind of uniqueness. Making the unit weaker would be required so as not to make Infantry redundant. (What would really be cool is having Civ2’s ‘Guerrilla Warfare’ effect in Civ3…but that’s another story.)


Thanks snowmelk for bringing this system to my attention. It’s simple and it’s highly applicable to the already existing Civ3 program. The best part is that the AI could be set to adapt to this far more easily than my more realistic system.

 

[Commander Bello]

Please allow for some comments.

I really would like to have a calculation for two supply areas from different nations covering the same area.
Since the supply area simulates the 'little trucks', those would invisibly be subject to interception and hold-ups. Since this would be done by similar 'little special actions teams', both will be unvisible and will be displayed by the nation with the higher military potential to have it's whole radius, while the inferior one will suffer the loss of some of it's possible tiles to be covered.
Two nations A and B, with A having a military power of 1,000 points and B having 900 military points (however this will be calculated) would mean, that a certain tile within in the supply range of both would have a 52.6 % chance to be supplied by nation A, while nation B will only have a chance of 47.3 %.
To avoid becoming supply stations something similar to fortresses (think of an powerfull enemy covering his border regions with supply stations), the calculation then would take the distance of each tile to the supply stations into account. Furthermore, there will be no supply necessary within the own territory, as we all agree. So, the tiles 'saved' for supply could be added to the 'out of territory' area, by that allowing to 'press' the supply area into enemy territory - at least up to a certain degree. This would especially be interesting if the border line will not be a straight line, but will have some angles. Let's say, a supply depot could cover up to 50 tiles. In case, that only 10 of these potential supplied tiles are outside of your territory, they would have a much higher probability to be supplied than if there would be 40 outside your territory.. (hmmm.. not very clear, hmm? - I have to count on your imagination, I guess)
As you already mentioned, activating a unit would trigger the display of these 'effective supply areas' but this could also be done by right-clicking the 'supply station' - just to check beforehand and make up one's plans.
For ships, I still don't like the idea of having them being subject to this concept, because this would make landing operations on other continents almost impossible. But there could be 'tankers' now to offer supply for the landing forces. These tankers of course would always be a primary target for subs and bombers, so you would NEED carriers in your fleet to protect them against air attacks.
If you enhance this whole concept then with (and this is something, which is missing anyway, as far as I see it) automatic fighter duels for air superiority, then landing operations in modern times would really become fun!
Now, how would this fight for air superiority be displayed? Each time, you place a fighter unit into the interception zone of an enemy, his fighters would be launched for interception, thus engaging your fighters (display as if you would launch a bomber raid). Of course, this could result into your fleet approaching enemy's shores, with his fighter wings engaging your own fighters... In the worst case, all your fighters would be shot down, thus leaving your tankers almost unprotected against follow-up air attacks.... In my eyes something similar to the pacific warfare during WW2.

 

[yoshi]

Although I appreciate the idea, limiting overlapping supply areas based on the more powerful of the two seems unecessarily comlicated (since the Culture effect can't be applied to this). Additonallly, limiting supply areas means that the weaker civ would potentially never be able to make attacks on enemy territory. The only way of making an attack would be to have a greater military might than your opponent --I'm sure you can see the various contradictions in this theory.

Let's assume Supply Depots don't become available until the Modern Age. That means Fortresses are the only 'supply' improvements available. Fortresses must be connected by Road to a city in order to provide a unit's supply area, so the connecting Roads can be pillaged thus preventing the enemy forces from advancing.

(Before I go on, a note on Fortresses/Supply Depots/Airbases: if they are disconnected from a city the units/motorized units will not lose health/movement and disband; they only lose health/movement if the supply area is lost for some reason.)

In the case of Supply Depots, their connecting Roads can also be pillaged it's just that this will only cause motorized unit to lose their supply area i.e. Supply Depots don't require roads to supply units that don't consume resources. This is consistent with reality as what you really want to do is prevent an enemy's armored units from advancing --the infantry are secondary.

The part about right-clicking the Supply Depot/Fortress/City won't work because the supply is unit based (i.e. it is more or less based on the unit's range --there is no universal supply area).

Your concerns regarding ships are justified. All I can say to that is to give ships a huge suppl;y area (i.e. setting the Range value at 30 or something). The reason why you shouldn't just give them infinite supply (Range = nothing) is because it would eliminate the need for strategic ports --and that would give naval powers an unfair advantage. The problem with supply areas on water is that you can't interconnect them using Road/RRs. That is why I mentioed earlier that ships should be given the ability to go beyond their supply areas at a gradual cost of health (and movement if they're motorized). This gives them just enough time to travel between supply areas.

Although I like the Tanker idea (i.e. unit that functions just like Supply Depot), it is clearly an exploit and would defeat the purpose of supply --you could just build a whole bunch of supply units and forget the Suplly Depots and Fortresses. And if you don't have these units then you're stuck. I was thinking that perhaps the Army unit could have this ability but even that would be used as an exploit by players. In order to make it fair, I would limit Armies to providing a limited supply area (i.e. same for all units) so that unit would be limited in range --thus it wouldn't be as useful as Supply Depots in that units have to stay within the Army's limited supply area.

Aren't air unit intercepted if they go on a Recon Mission over a square that falls within the enemy Fighter's interception zone? If they don't, then just getting them to do so would give you this effect. Getting the AI to do the same would be a must.

Your invasion tactic can still work without Tankers because you send Workers along with your ships (units don't need Supply when in a hold). You use your Marines to clear the coast --they can attack from the ship and land if they win without supply (of course if they stay there and have no supply,they will begin to lose health). I guess this is where giving the Army the Supply ability would come into it (i.e. once the Marines clear the coast, they land and provide supply to the units making landfall). The Workers have infinite supply for obvious reasons so they go about building Supply Depots and Airbases once you have cleared the area of enemy units. You can also use your units to take over enemy Supply Depots and Airbases.

Just to sum up:

Fortresses: provide unit supply area but must be connected to a city.

Supply Depots: same as Fortresses but do not have to be connected to a city in order to provide supply to non-mechanized units --must be connected to a city with acess to required resource in order to supply mechanized units.

Armies: provide limited supply area (not based on unit range). Note: Armies are still dependent on supply but their range is immense.

Ships: can travel between supply areas but lose health in doing so (and movement if motorized).