[GS] New units in Gathering Storm

[SupremacyKing2]

The problem with a weapon that relies on EMP for effects, is that it is almost impossible to Limit the area of the effects. If the EMP is powerful enough to shut down all electronics (except 'hardened' electronics, which various militaries have been building for over 30 years now) it is liable to damage electronic equipment over a good portion of a hemisphere. That means Everybody's electronics over a good part of the globe get hit. Kinda like using a shotgun on a mosquito - you'll probably get him, but the collateral damage could be prohibitive...

Well that could be part of the risk assessment with using the unit. The area of effect of the EMP bomb in the game could be large so the player has to determine if it is worth using against an enemy if some of their own friendly cities might get hit too.

 

[AriochIV]

The problem with a weapon that relies on EMP for effects, is that it is almost impossible to Limit the area of the effects. If the EMP is powerful enough to shut down all electronics (except 'hardened' electronics, which various militaries have been building for over 30 years now) it is liable to damage electronic equipment over a good portion of a hemisphere. That means Everybody's electronics over a good part of the globe get hit. Kinda like using a shotgun on a mosquito - you'll probably get him, but the collateral damage could be prohibitive...

EMP requires line of sight to affect a target, and so the curvature of the Earth limits range. A blast at an altitude of 300 km (which is low Earth orbit) would have a horizon radius of about 2000 kilometers. A blast higher than that would have reduced effect because of the distance and lack of atmosphere. So no, you can't knock out an entire hemisphere with a single EMP weapon.

The Soviets did an EMP test over Kazakhstan in 1962 with a 300 kiloton explosion at an altitude of 290 kilometers. It had measurable effects in Kazakhstan, but not in the surrounding areas, and it certainly didn't affect the whole hemisphere.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1549/2

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

EMP requires line of sight to affect a target, and so the curvature of the Earth limits range. A blast at an altitude of 300 km (which is low Earth orbit) would have a horizon radius of about 2000 kilometers. A blast higher than that would have reduced effect because of the distance and lack of atmosphere. So no, you can't knock out an entire hemisphere with a single EMP weapon.

The Soviets did an EMP test over Kazakhstan in 1962 with a 300 kiloton explosion at an altitude of 290 kilometers. It had measurable effects in Kazakhstan, but not in the surrounding areas, and it certainly didn't affect the whole hemisphere.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1549/2

Thank you! That's a good source of information you included.

An interesting point, though, that it indicates that modern solid-state electronics are bout 20 times more vulnerable to EMP effects than the 1960s-era vacuum tubes present when the tests were conducted, and that Solar Storms may produce EMP-like effects an Order of Magnitude greater than the man-made bombs.
A massive Solar Storm, then, like the one that hit in the 1850s, might be another form of Natural Disaster for the game, one whose effects are almost nil until you reach the Atomic and Information Eras...

 

[Pietato]

People on here cry though about natural disasters without benefits.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

It looks like the Maori's UU, the Toa (shown below) is not a Swordsman replacement in the current build even though it's a Classical Melee unit with the same combat strength as Roman Legions.

 

[Pietato]

You are sure it does not replace the Swordsman? That would be...odd.

 

[AriochIV]

You are sure it does not replace the Swordsman? That would be...odd.

They didn't say definitively either way. My guess is that they don't replace Swordsmen, but it's just a guess.

I think it's kind of dumb that the Toa gets a higher strength than Swordsmen AND the -5 strength to enemy units Haka War Dance... naked guys with clubs have a +10 Combat Strength advantage over armored guys with swords??? Riiiiiight... but then, that's Civ UU's for you.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

They didn't say definitively either way. My guess is that they don't replace Swordsmen, but it's just a guess.

I think it's kind of dumb that the Toa gets a higher strength than Swordsmen AND the -5 strength to enemy units Haka War Dance... naked guys with clubs have a +10 Combat Strength advantage over armored guys with swords??? Riiiiiight... but then, that's Civ UU's for you.

Slightly off topic:
You still have the mystery mound labelled as a Pa on your website.

 

[AriochIV]

Slightly off topic:
You still have the mystery mound labelled as a Pa on your website.

Thanks for the reminder. I'm wondering whether or not that was an earlier version of the Pa graphic, or something else. Regardless, I've updated the label.

 

[Myomoto]

They didn't say definitively either way. My guess is that they don't replace Swordsmen, but it's just a guess.

I think it's kind of dumb that the Toa gets a higher strength than Swordsmen AND the -5 strength to enemy units Haka War Dance... naked guys with clubs have a +10 Combat Strength advantage over armored guys with swords??? Riiiiiight... but then, that's Civ UU's for you.

Slight correction - naked guys that dance.

 

[acluewithout]

They didn't say definitively either way. My guess is that they don't replace Swordsmen, but it's just a guess.

I think it's kind of dumb that the Toa gets a higher strength than Swordsmen AND the -5 strength to enemy units Haka War Dance... naked guys with clubs have a +10 Combat Strength advantage over armored guys with swords??? Riiiiiight... but then, that's Civ UU's for you.

I mean, yes, you’re probably right.

But. Maori warriors were famous for just how terrifying and powerful they were. Big guys. It’s a bit old now, but check out the movie Once Were Warriors. Or watch an All Blacks game.

 

[nzcamel]

But. Maori warriors were famous for just how terrifying and powerful they were. Big guys. It’s a bit old now, but check out the movie Once Were Warriors. Or watch an All Blacks game.

Or Utu:

 

[Sostratus]

You are sure it does not replace the Swordsman? That would be...odd.

To steal from myself in the maori thread

This is why i think the toa is potentially problematic:
Consider Toa vs Shaka's impi corps, generally considered medieval bruisers
40
+10 vs anticav
+5 from haka alpha dominance dance
+8 from oligarchy and legacy
=63.
Impi corps with oligarchy
41
+10 from corps
+5 from shaka's loincloth (zulu corps bonus)
+8 from oligarchy and legacy
=64.
An impi corps costs ~250 production.
Even without using pikes here, Toa can outhit knights by 5 (53 v 48), Black Army as seen so far by 3, only losing to samurai (by just 3) in the middle ages. And the toa can get tortoise to fend off crossbows (and battlecry to be cruel.)

They got some teeth on them jade clubs!

I get the impression that they are going to be a more unique unit that doesn't upgrade form warriors. It looks like they took a varu unit (which is also 40str/2move/-5aura)and added the legion's build fort ability. We will find out more once we actually see the stream, but if it were a swordsman they would have easily the best unit in 2 eras and it would be blisteringly OP for anyone to fight. Whereas if it was some special unit that showed up at a weird tech or civic, that would make a lot more sense. It will still be an absolute beast into the middle ages with those stats, though. The reason the varu works out is because you can't oligarchy boost a varu and you can still 'beat' them with anticav. (Kind of, pikes are extremely costly but they can beat the unit)

 

[GoatsHeadSoup]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but prime candidates for Future era unit upgrades could be units that didn't receive an upgrade in the Information era. Those would be:
Cavalry (Light Cavalry)
Machine Gun (Ranged)
Carrier
Destroyer (Naval Melee)
Modern AT (Anti-Cavalry)

Light Cavalry- Light cavalry's final upgrade is an attack helicopter right? I could see it upgrading into a VTOL, something that looks like an Osprey
Machine Gun- Can upgrade into a modern LMG unit, machine guns are still useful in modern warfare and probably will continue to be in the near future
Carrier- Upgrades into a modern supercarrier, there are already mods that add this
Destroyer- Can upgrade into a railgun Destroyer, really cool technology that already exists
Modern AT- I'm not sure, anti-tank technology hasn't changed much since the cold war

I would also be happy if the new units are for WW1 era-wise instead of the future. Anything that isn't that crappy Giant Death Robot would be preferable.

 

[nzcamel]

To steal from myself in the maori thread

This is why i think the toa is potentially problematic:
Consider Toa vs Shaka's impi corps, generally considered medieval bruisers
40
+10 vs anticav
+5 from haka alpha dominance dance
+8 from oligarchy and legacy
=63.
Impi corps with oligarchy
41
+10 from corps
+5 from shaka's loincloth (zulu corps bonus)
+8 from oligarchy and legacy
=64.
An impi corps costs ~250 production.
Even without using pikes here, Toa can outhit knights by 5 (53 v 48), Black Army as seen so far by 3, only losing to samurai (by just 3) in the middle ages. And the toa can get tortoise to fend off crossbows (and battlecry to be cruel.)

They got some teeth on them jade clubs!

​

I get the impression that they are going to be a more unique unit that doesn't upgrade form warriors. It looks like they took a varu unit (which is also 40str/2move/-5aura)and added the legion's build fort ability. We will find out more once we actually see the stream, but if it were a swordsman they would have easily the best unit in 2 eras and it would be blisteringly OP for anyone to fight. Whereas if it was some special unit that showed up at a weird tech or civic, that would make a lot more sense. It will still be an absolute beast into the middle ages with those stats, though. The reason the varu works out is because you can't oligarchy boost a varu and you can still 'beat' them with anticav. (Kind of, pikes are extremely costly but they can beat the unit)

I will answer your stolen comment by stealing my answer to it in the other thread:

It's an interesting comparison as Toa and Impi existed at a similar time in world history. Civ VI has gone down the path of placing native UU's all over the show i.e. The Eagle Warriors and the Toa in era's they didn't exist; but where it feels like they should exist if their cultures were around at the dawn of time. Impi's & that Brazilian battleship on the other hand have been included in an era they really existed in; but then buffed them up to be stronger than similar more powerful real world rivals.

I'm probably biased; but I think if they had enough numbers the Maori would have smashed the Zulu in real world combat in the 19th century. Of course their UU's should never meet in Civ, ironically.

And I think you (and @Eagle Pursuit ) are right to assume it will be a stand alone unit, not only because of the way it is described in the FL; but also because of how strong it is.​

 

[NukeAJS]

I don't see the Horseman->Cavalry gap too big... from a historical perspective at least. Knight->Tank bothers me a lot more.

The horsemen -> cavalry gap seems so severe because horsemen are normally meh units even if you B line them. If you gets knights early, you are a force of god. Because knights are so strong when they appear, they have a longer effective lifespan.

Horsemen/calvary definitely need a unit between. That or they need to be retooled -- 50% chance to withdraw when attacked (if space allows) or always being able to move after attack. Hell, giving them +4 strength ... something. Basically something that allows them to survive.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

You are sure it does not replace the Swordsman? That would be...odd.

Am I sure? No. But, when a UU replaces a GU it almost always will say so in the unit description on the Civ/Leader screen - (Civilization) unique (Era) unit that replaces (General Unit) (See Hungary UU example attachment.). The Toa doesn't list it as a replacement for anything as of the build they used for the First Look.

 

[nzcamel]

The horsemen -> cavalry gap seems so severe because horsemen are normally meh units even if you B line them. If you gets knights early, you are a force of god. Because knights are so strong when they appear, they have a longer effective lifespan.

Horsemen/calvary definitely need a unit between. That or they need to be retooled -- 50% chance to withdraw when attacked (if space allows) or always being able to move after attack. Hell, giving them +4 strength ... something. Basically something that allows them to survive.

maybe along with adding a unit in between knights and tanks, the former will be reduced a bit in power.

 

[AriochIV]

I've never really been that excited about Horsemen or Knights. They're very vulnerable to ranged attacks, which is really all the AI can use with any effectiveness. My cavalry rarely survives to the modern age to be upgraded. I had similar issues in Civ V -- the AI tends to target the most vulnerable unit, and that's usually the cavalry.

 

[nzcamel]

I've never really been that excited about Horsemen or Knights. They're very vulnerable to ranged attacks, which is really all the AI can use with any effectiveness. My cavalry rarely survives to the modern age to be upgraded. I had similar issues in Civ V -- the AI tends to target the most vulnerable unit, and that's usually the cavalry.

So you don't give your knights the turtle promotion?