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stii

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People play old versions that aren't broken. You can see evidence of this from time to time in various threads, and also outside this site.
I'm sure there are people who currently don't play VP at all but would if MP wasn't completely broken. I sometimes go years between single player games, but would definitely play MP if it was stable.

And finally, even if the fraction of MP players is small, so what?
The fraction of people who play a weak civ like Germany is also probably small. So let's just get rid of Germany, or if a bug with its uniques is discovered let's just ignore it!

"It's was determined that the number of people who play multiplayer are a small percent of the of the total."
Literally no possible way to determine that. What a ridiculous statement.


Yeah I will stop replying to you before this gets out of hand. But please don't make up quotes from me.
 

Amask

Oogala Boogala
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The quote is from a direct reply to my original post by another user.
I was too lazy to use the proper quote functionality because I assumed that if you read my original post to which you replied, then you also must've read the one directly below it that's on the same topic.
 

stii

Emperor
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The quote is from a direct reply to my original post by another user.
I was too lazy to use the proper quote functionality because I assumed that if you read my original post to which you replied, then you also must've read the one directly below it that's on the same topic.

Ok lets try something more productive.

What version of VP is stable for MP? We are still trying ot set it up to some degree so it would be useful to know how far back we'd need to og to use it.
 

Amask

Oogala Boogala
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I'm not interested in playing older versions, so I couldn't tell you.
In the discord we set up a few people were playing an old version, and it worked for them. I don't recall which one it was, but I'm sure you can find it.
Other examples you'd have to dig for in various threads here. I don't remember if people even always mentioned a specific version they were using, other than just saying "old".

Anyway, my point was that MP shouldn't just be discounted because a supposedly small fraction of people play it. We don't know how small it really is, and it shouldn't matter.
 

XSamatan

Warlord
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Messages
131
Devs mod in their free time, it is completely up to them if they find the time to fix a bug. This is after all a community project, if a player wants a feature added/bug fixed anyone is invited to get started, the relevant tutorials can be found on git and/or in this subforum.

Regards
XSamatan
 

AndreyK

Prince
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Yakutsk, Russia
I found religion with Theocratic Rule and I see that +15% to gold is shown in city screen, but not actually added. Also I see that I have missionary of no religion spawned immediately, so he's of no use and I have to disband him.

8930_20220703022301_1.png 8930_20220703022327_1.png
 

Zanteogo

King
Joined
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Anyway, my point was that MP shouldn't just be discounted because a supposedly small fraction of people play it. We don't know how small it really is, and it shouldn't matter.

It matters when this is a free mod and the limited development crew do this in their free time.

Things have to be prioritized on how many people the change actually helps and improves. Trying to balance this game around a limited multiplayer sub group unfortunately doesn't seem realistic.

It's just way more streamlined to focus on the single player aspect.

Also, going back to my previous statement on it was shown that multiplayer was a small fraction of players, if my memory serves me I believe this was for the base game working with steam statics. Sure, perhaps for some reason there is a massive group of multiplayers using an older version of this mod, but if there is they have never made themselves known. I am sure we would have been made aware before this if this was the case, and even IF this is the case, my above points still stand.

Also, respectfully, this is a community project, if you would like to make code changes that make multiplayer work, or any other changes, feel free to submit them. If they don't greatly effect other gameplay mechanics and are stable they will probably be approved.
 

AndreyK

Prince
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I got a second free missionary (that first did become of my religion) and 40 turns later (epic speed, when I was saving faith for second prophet and saved more than 500) got a third free missionary. Does anybody get fee missionaries? May be it is that my first prophet did spawn in my second city and I moved him to capital to found.
 

Amask

Oogala Boogala
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It matters when this is a free mod and the limited development crew do this in their free time.
Things have to be prioritized on how many people the change actually helps and improves. Trying to balance this game around a limited multiplayer sub group unfortunately doesn't seem realistic.

You're right about limited dev time and prioritization, and my wording could've been better.

I'm just voicing an opinion that is often overlooked - the game is not just a single player game. Some people even pretend MP doesn't exist at all.

I'm also not asking for balance changes.
The thing that started the discussion was when someone else said that an exploit can just be ignored because this is a single player game.
That is unacceptable.
As long as there are some people that play MP, then at least some effort should be put into it instead of just pretending it doesn't exist. I'm not here to debate how much, as long as it's not just dismissed outright.

And when it comes to the mod being free, that's true for virtually every other mod for every other game ever, and certainly doesn't absolve it of criticism, especially not with a name like Vox Populi.
I wish people would stop bringing this up any time the mod is criticized.
Just as the devs are free to focus on whatever they want, I am also free to voice my opinion. I feel like I have done enough of that for now, so have a good day.
 

Recursive

Already Looping
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You're right about limited dev time and prioritization, and my wording could've been better.

I'm just voicing an opinion that is often overlooked - the game is not just a single player game. Some people even pretend MP doesn't exist at all.

I'm also not asking for balance changes.
The thing that started the discussion was when someone else said that an exploit can just be ignored because this is a single player game.
That is unacceptable.
As long as there are some people that play MP, then at least some effort should be put into it instead of just pretending it doesn't exist. I'm not here to debate how much, as long as it's not just dismissed outright.

And when it comes to the mod being free, that's true for virtually every other mod for every other game ever, and certainly doesn't absolve it of criticism, especially not with a name like Vox Populi.
I wish people would stop bringing this up any time the mod is criticized.
Just as the devs are free to focus on whatever they want, I am also free to voice my opinion. I feel like I have done enough of that for now, so have a good day.

We don't have access to the networking code for MP, which makes debugging the crashes etc. extremely difficult as we don't know what is causing them. Blame Firaxis's unwillingness to release the source code.

Since multiplayer is completely broken right now, we're not changing things with it in mind.
 

KlHannibal2

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As for the new UA of Germany:

- Unit gifts to City-States provide +1 Influence per turn (lost when the gifted unit is killed or upgraded)

I played Garmany with this ability when it was part of PDan's tweaks. There, the influence from gifted units was lost when they were killed, but not when they were upgraded. In that version, the power of this ability felt right. It was good early and mid game, but late game it fell off as AIs got loads of influence, while you can only gift so many units to one city state to keep up.

Why do they lose the influence after being upgraded now? It is a big nerf of the original mechanic.
 

4CV

Warlord
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255
Location
Germany
...
The thing that started the discussion was when someone else said that an exploit can just be ignored because this is a single player game.
Regarding MP games, I am quite sure "exploits" indeed can safely be ignored as well. I have read many reports/photojournals on BNW MP-games in german civforum. There is always a set of rules agreed and in most cases that seems to work good enough. The clearer the rules the better ofc, but no one ever asked for elimination of possible exploits from the BNW code. Why should it be necessary in VP then?
 

CppMaster

Emperor
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Less bugs/exploits -> better quality of the game. No one said that removal of these is absolutely necessary to play the game. It's possible to play a game with bugs, right? ;)
 

beginner_

Chieftain
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I did read the change-log but was wondering if there was anything else done on top that maybe made the AI weaker? I'm asking because last game on 2.3.1 AI seemed to be pretty strong and I actually managed to lose to a culture victory. Now on same low level (Prince) on 2.4.4 I'm completely dominant (more than double the points). The difference is staggering like 2-3 levels easier. Only difference is map size which I'm aware can increase difficulty to some extent but not this extent and of course the AI Civs in game are different. And my Civ. lost as Shoshone, now rocking it as France.
anyway it seems the exact circumstances can have an impact bigger than one difficulty level. I play prince because in the end I usually win even with tons of lost opportunities/mistakes. A lot more fun than losing the game due to unit micro management issues or miss clicks.
 

filipop

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 3, 2022
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4
As for the new UA of Germany:

- Unit gifts to City-States provide +1 Influence per turn (lost when the gifted unit is killed or upgraded)

I played Garmany with this ability when it was part of PDan's tweaks. There, the influence from gifted units was lost when they were killed, but not when they were upgraded. In that version, the power of this ability felt right. It was good early and mid game, but late game it fell off as AIs got loads of influence, while you can only gift so many units to one city state to keep up.

Why do they lose the influence after being upgraded now? It is a big nerf of the original mechanic.

I just had a game with Germany and I agree with this. On higher difficulties Germany just doesn't have a UA - the units upgrade too fast. There are stretches of time where you can donate for maximum impact, i.e. spearmen + landsknecht before the units upgrade, but at both these times you'd really rather be using these units to forestall early ai aggression/capitalise on UU. Even donating most of my army to make best use of the UA I only briefly secured two allies.

Part of this is also due to how quickly city states become to full to accept donations. I'm not sure if this is unique to my experience, but I was really struggling to send any unit to any CS past medieval and had to start proxy wars to whittle CS units down

If CS could always accept units + Germany got their UU back which converted barbs then the nerfed UA would be fine imo otherwise probably best to buff the UA
 

KlHannibal2

Warlord
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Messages
135
I just had a game with Germany and I agree with this. On higher difficulties Germany just doesn't have a UA - the units upgrade too fast. There are stretches of time where you can donate for maximum impact, i.e. spearmen + landsknecht before the units upgrade, but at both these times you'd really rather be using these units to forestall early ai aggression/capitalise on UU. Even donating most of my army to make best use of the UA I only briefly secured two allies.

Part of this is also due to how quickly city states become to full to accept donations. I'm not sure if this is unique to my experience, but I was really struggling to send any unit to any CS past medieval and had to start proxy wars to whittle CS units down

If CS could always accept units + Germany got their UU back which converted barbs then the nerfed UA would be fine imo otherwise probably best to buff the UA

I quite liked the initial version of the ability in PDan's mod. Keeping the influence after upgrading was fine, and not too strong, as later in the game, AIs build up lots of influence. Getting 3 or 4 per turn is not too much.

It also allowed for interesting tech choices. I would deliberately delay some unit techs so I can build older (and cheaper) units for a longer time and donate them.

I did not do the math, but losing the influence after the units get upgraded could mean that building and gifting units is less efficient than building diplomatic units, especially later in the game.
 

pineappledan

Deity
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Aug 9, 2017
Messages
7,345
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Alberta, Canada
Oh hey, feedback!

I’m in the midst of my own Germany game (prince, standard). In light of the knowledge that the unit will obsolete or be deleted eventually, I have made an effort to give the newest archer or melee line unit, alternating, so they have the most time before they obsolete. I have come to the opposite observation, in that many of my ancient archers haven’t been upgraded in Rennaissamce, so I have gotten 100+ :c5influence:Influence for their 150:c5gold: purchase price, which is way more value than what I intended with this UA

I haven’t gotten to the late game yet, and I know Im playing on a more relaxed mode, but I have come away contemplating is Germany might need a nerf, given that no civ on my continent has been able to compete with me for a single CS ally, and they can’t do anything about it, because I have gifted each of them >4 units, and can turn the whole continent of armed to the teeth CS and myself on them at any time.
 

beginner_

Chieftain
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
47
I haven’t gotten to the late game yet, and I know Im playing on a more relaxed mode, but I have come away contemplating is Germany might need a nerf, given that no civ on my continent has been able to compete with me for a single CS ally, and they can’t do anything about it, because I have gifted each of them >4 units, and can turn the whole continent of armed to the teeth CS and myself on them at any time.

That just sounds you are in general dominant and need to up the level. The AI can do one thing: attack you as you likely will have less units. I'm playing France and in mid-late game now and I got some useless units from my Vassals and instead of deleting them I thought to gift them. Was not possible. city states where maxed out. SO I think that can really become a problem rather quickly.

And it explains why when I attacked Germany in early game, he was surprisingly weak. probably donated too much units?
 

filipop

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 3, 2022
Messages
4
Yeah, comments about sample size withstanding, it seems higher difficulties dramatically diminish the power of Germany's current UA:

1) AIs are free to gift more military, earlier, filling up CS quicker.

2) More army is needed at home to prevent invasion early on, unfortunately conflicting with the most critical time to send units

3) AIs tech faster letting CS upgrade units faster, losing potential influence.

Can only envision a fix being that Germany has the unique ability to always be able send units even when CS are full (maybe even if it's only directly by them being in CS territory). It's a fun UA in theory and would be a shame to lose it.
 
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