Status
Not open for further replies.
It includes them, at least according to the description. I have not actually tried it. I never pick that one.
Great I'll test it, I think its a decent pantheon, lots of food, and means I can go granary before shrine, the gold is also useful, even more so in latest versions where trade is nerfed.
 
Great I'll test it, I think its a decent pantheon, lots of food, and means I can go granary before shrine, the gold is also useful, even more so in latest versions where trade is nerfed.
Trade actually seems more interesting now. Need more gaming time but im getting decent offers for my luxuries now. Seems like a small bump for my strategic resources as well. However the ai seems to only be buying and selling what they actually need. So seems to be working as intended.
 
1660840493891.png

I found something wrong in the AssignStartingPlot.lua code, but it's not that game-breaking.
It still would cause a potential plot-generating bug.

Until the new version comes up, here's the fixed file.
 

Attachments

  • AssignStartingPlots.zip
    107.4 KB · Views: 41
Last edited:
- Reworked early ranged unit line Slinger is now the first unit in the line, and has 1 range (Archers and later units still have 2 range) Inca have a better version of the Slinger (Waraq''Ak), which has 2 range and can daze units Archers now unlock at Calendar, obsolete at Currency Composite Bowmen now unlock at Currency Babylonian Bowman now replaces Archer Mayan Atlatlist now replaces Composite Bowman, still unlocks at Mathematics
does this address some kind of balance issue? Only played one game w/ 'em so far, but w/ limited supply in early game, slingers costing more than warriors, only 1-range, etc., seems a waste of a unit. Other than getting the jump on leveling up an archer (a human-favoring strat, certainly), I can't think of why I'd ever build a slinger. Tech changes seem pretty wonky, thematically. For that matter, not so sure that there's any real historical evidence that suggest slings preceded bows. Am I missing something on this change?

Anyway thanks all for update!
 
I feel like the revamping of luxury trading with AI is going to royally screw over any player who wants to try the Netherlands, especially the part where they won’t trade for goods they don’t “want”.

For goods they don’t want, the AI should at least offer a reduced gold amount if they’ve got decent gold per turn. Making them hold back for the sake of potential WLTKD chances doesn’t make much sense unless they’re a civ that has a unique bonus from it like Brazil or China.
 
Trade actually seems more interesting now. Need more gaming time but im getting decent offers for my luxuries now. Seems like a small bump for my strategic resources as well. However the ai seems to only be buying and selling what they actually need. So seems to be working as intended.
I feel like the revamping of luxury trading with AI is going to royally screw over any player who wants to try the Netherlands, especially the part where they won’t trade for goods they don’t “want”.

For goods they don’t want, the AI should at least offer a reduced gold amount if they’ve got decent gold per turn. Making them hold back for the sake of potential WLTKD chances doesn’t make much sense unless they’re a civ that has a unique bonus from it like Brazil or China.

I would disagree with the first idea. It might have been interesting in theory but in reality it has turned into a bit of a drag. A very unfunny one. While it might make some kind of sense nothing about it is good when it comes to actually playing compared to previously. I would say that the new trade valuation is just to annoying to play with really. If it solved something or made it better for the AI it made it infinitly worse and more micromanagement for the player.

The UI (on the right side with all the faces and their various needs or haves) is now completely useless and/or broken for the player as it doesn't show what the AI is willing to sell or want to buy anymore. It shows what they have and what they can buy not what they want to buy. So you have to go into each and every civ. Click each and every item one by one to see if they want to buy that thing or if that is "impossible" or not. You can't really mass-click on all your luxuries as one "bad" item makes the deal impossible. I guess you could offer everything and click off one item at a time but then that doesn't really help or tell you much of anything either unless they want to buy everything, which they most likely won't.

That task alone takes an incredible amount of time per turn to check. You are basically better of just ignoring the entire aspect of the game. Just trade when the AI wants to trade and makes an offer to you. The other part is now basically dead or pointless as far as I am concerned. That is if the AI will even accept the trades even when it suggests it themselves since apparently a good chunk of those trades comes out as Impossible to or they offer like 0 or 1 gold for them. There have been some utterly rare exceptions to this but nothing you can actually live on trade wise. This so far is mainly based on the first 1/3 of total_turns allowed (so end of medieval era or so). Perhaps it works out in the end but in the first third of the game this sucks hard.

I would think that Goddess of Festivals is probably next to pointless as a Pantheon at the moment.

I have not tried to play as the Netherlands yet but with them in game they seem to bork themselves hard since their whole thing is importing luxuries. Which they apparently don't. They should be living the dream now then with all the duplicates they could get. But they don't from what I can tell. Or at least they don't want to buy my duplicates. Money doesn't appear to be an issue for them as they are making decent GPT. I assume other similar luxury and trade abilities are similarly borked. Even tho many of them depend on traderoutes instead of specific items, so they are probably saved in that regard.

Civs that spawn their own unique luxuries (Brazil, Inca, Indo ...) are just creating stockpiles of their goods from what I can tell. In my current game Indonesia is sitting on 3+ of cloves, pepper, nutmeg and just won't trade them to anyone it seems. That is to say nobody wants to buy them since they don't need them. Similar sitation with the Inca and Brazil.

What this whole change sort of misses in some regard is that there is a difference between NEED and WANT. Consumers or countries in some regard might not NEED things to live or whatever. But whole industries are there to create and supply the WANT. Even things people clearly don't need. So to cut this whole thing of to just cater to NEED at a minimum or minimal level seems quite silly really. It's not that you should over do it and just buy buy buy everything there is, that has always been a bad strategy in the game -- as this sort of prevents city-state quests from popping up where they want you to connect various resources. So in that regard you want to not buy things or getting rid of all your stratresources just so the quest can pop up. That aspect is now also not really working.
 
I would disagree with the first idea. It might have been interesting in theory but in reality it has turned into a bit of a drag. A very unfunny one. While it might make some kind of sense nothing about it is good when it comes to actually playing compared to previously. I would say that the new trade valuation is just to annoying to play with really. If it solved something or made it better for the AI it made it infinitly worse and more micromanagement for the player.

The UI (on the right side with all the faces and their various needs or haves) is now completely useless and/or broken for the player as it doesn't show what the AI is willing to sell or want to buy anymore. It shows what they have and what they can buy not what they want to buy. So you have to go into each and every civ. Click each and every item one by one to see if they want to buy that thing or if that is "impossible" or not. You can't really mass-click on all your luxuries as one "bad" item makes the deal impossible. I guess you could offer everything and click off one item at a time but then that doesn't really help or tell you much of anything either unless they want to buy everything, which they most likely won't.

That task alone takes an incredible amount of time per turn to check. You are basically better of just ignoring the entire aspect of the game. Just trade when the AI wants to trade and makes an offer to you. The other part is now basically dead or pointless as far as I am concerned. That is if the AI will even accept the trades even when it suggests it themselves since apparently a good chunk of those trades comes out as Impossible to or they offer like 0 or 1 gold for them. There have been some utterly rare exceptions to this but nothing you can actually live on trade wise. This so far is mainly based on the first 1/3 of total_turns allowed (so end of medieval era or so). Perhaps it works out in the end but in the first third of the game this sucks hard.

I would think that Goddess of Festivals is probably next to pointless as a Pantheon at the moment.

I have not tried to play as the Netherlands yet but with them in game they seem to bork themselves hard since their whole thing is importing luxuries. Which they apparently don't. They should be living the dream now then with all the duplicates they could get. But they don't from what I can tell. Or at least they don't want to buy my duplicates. Money doesn't appear to be an issue for them as they are making decent GPT. I assume other similar luxury and trade abilities are similarly borked. Even tho many of them depend on traderoutes instead of specific items, so they are probably saved in that regard.

Civs that spawn their own unique luxuries (Brazil, Inca, Indo ...) are just creating stockpiles of their goods from what I can tell. In my current game Indonesia is sitting on 3+ of cloves, pepper, nutmeg and just won't trade them to anyone it seems. That is to say nobody wants to buy them since they don't need them. Similar sitation with the Inca and Brazil.

What this whole change sort of misses in some regard is that there is a difference between NEED and WANT. Consumers or countries in some regard might not NEED things to live or whatever. But whole industries are there to create and supply the WANT. Even things people clearly don't need. So to cut this whole thing of to just cater to NEED at a minimum or minimal level seems quite silly really. It's not that you should over do it and just buy buy buy everything there is, that has always been a bad strategy in the game -- as this sort of prevents city-state quests from popping up where they want you to connect various resources. So in that regard you want to not buy things or getting rid of all your stratresources just so the quest can pop up. That aspect is now also not really working.
Some good points here. Mainly the ui being much less useful and more micromanagement required.

However. I am still seeing the ai trading a fair bit of their resources. As opposed to before where they would give you anything for a price. And that price wasnt very high since gold is easy to come by.

Because of this i found the netherlands actually very OP. Now they can still import and export luxories just not at an absurd rate.

However im still early in playtesting.
 
Something is definitely off about the luxury valuation. Every leader turns down my proposal (Impossible!) when I offer them luxuries, even when they have spare luxuries sitting around. I can still buy their luxuries for for gold or strategic resources though.

And then, out of the blue, miss Wu turns up and offers 32 GPT (~1600 deal value) for my Citrus, which she refused to buy all game. This is medieval era, so the deal value would normally be around 200.
View attachment 636993
It could be worth for them since they have a unique WLTKD, especially when multiple cities ask for Citrus.
 
Netherlands should want the first import of everything and trade for them with a good amount of gold. If you see IMPOSSIBLE on a luxury they haven't imported, that's a bug.

I'm also proposing to add "Luxury gifts cannot be refused" to the Netherlands UA, so they'll also get to export one copy of everything they have, without restrictions (unless sanctioned).
 
Netherlands should want the first import of everything and trade for them with a good amount of gold. If you see IMPOSSIBLE on a luxury they haven't imported, that's a bug.

I'm also proposing to add "Luxury gifts cannot be refused" to the Netherlands UA, so they'll also get to export one copy of everything they have, without restrictions (unless sanctioned).

If it’s a gift, why would any civ, human or AI, refuse it in the first place?

Humans might have really convoluted or situational reasons to refuse, but AI should not.
 
If it’s a gift, why would any civ, human or AI, refuse it in the first place?

Humans might have really convoluted or situational reasons to refuse, but AI should not.

Depends on how many levels of thought you want to be involved in. It's a bit convoluted but it works in the game. Basically by refusing a gift you are hoping that a city-state quest for that gift will show up soon and you'll complete it then. If you already have the item the quest won't show as there will only be quests for things which you do not have. This is why there is a point to selling all your copies, all your horses/iron etc. So a quest for it will pop and then you can complete it either by hooking up new once, letting the deal run its course or cancelling the deal by declaring war. It could also be that your cities are in WLTKD state of happiness at the moment but it will end in a a few turns so you hope that by not getting the gift you'll be able to buy it from them in a few turns when your cities hopefully request it.

In some regard this is perhaps a bit game:y and not something I think would translate well into reality.
 
Just a pet peeve of mine, but I think Archers would be better off at Construction than Calendar. It makes more sense in terms of history/immersion, but more importantly putting Archers at Calendar forces early warmongers to stretch themselves more than before in terms of the order they research techs to get units - especially when paired with moving Catapults to Masonry (not that I mind the Catapult change itself).

Also, why move Composite Bowmen to Currency? Weren’t they at Engineering a long time ago?

With the C.Bows moved, Mathematics is looking kind of barren right now. Aside from unique components, it’s almost like a speed bump on the tech tree if you can’t or just don’t want to build the wonders. It would be nice if we could come up with ideas for things to add to it, or at least consider removing it and assimilating its contents into other nearby techs - perhaps Skirmishers and Hanging Gardens to Masonry, and Roman Forum to Writing?
 
Basically by refusing a gift you are hoping that a city-state quest for that gift will show up soon and you'll complete it then. If you already have the item the quest won't show as there will only be quests for things which you do not have. This is why there is a point to selling all your copies, all your horses/iron etc. So a quest for it will pop and then you can complete it either by hooking up new once, letting the deal run its course or cancelling the deal by declaring war.
Yeah, this is very gamey. Exploit even. Is it really a good thing to have in the game?

It'd be better if CS quests and cities demands were not limited to resources you don't have. Then if you already have a resource and a city demand it or CS give you a quest for that, it'd complete automatically. That would incentivise to have as many resources as possible instead of not wanting a resource for a potential quest, which is very gamey and unnatural.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, this is very gamey. Exploit even. Is it really a good thing to have in the game?
IMO it’s fine if human players are doing it, but trying to program AI to account for so many “maybes” and “might haves” is going to cause more problems than it solves.
 
Well the whole WLTKD mechanic is just gamey. I think you can make it so that WLTKD &quests will not ask for resources owned (but fully exported) by the player, but that would penalize players for going wide, which is probably worse.

Slingers will have the same cost as warriors in the next patch, I can't adress the other comments though.
 
Yeah, this is very gamey. Exploit even. Is it really a good thing to have in the game?

It'd be better if CS quests and cities demands were not limited to resources you don't have. Then if you already have a resource and a city demand it or CS give you a quest for that, it'd complete automatically. That would incentivise to have as many resources as possible instead of not wanting a resource for a potential quest, which is very gamey and unnatural.

It is what it is. It's been in the game for a long time (or forever as I recall it now). Still doing it is by no mean a guarantee that it will happen, it's a bit of a gamble. That said there is no real downside to the gamble either --- except not having a luxury or strat resource for a few turns. If it doesn't pan out you can just buy it later. Unless the AI sold it or gave it to someone else. So there is a little risk involved in it, just not a very large one. Then there is a penalty for the relationship to if you refuse a gift (both giving and receiving). So it's not entirely risk free even tho I probably would consider it as such.

The closest thing to what you suggest that can already happen is that you can get a quests for a resource and complete it on the same turn -- usually by a deal ending, an improvement completing or a city-state allegiance shifting. So it can sort of "randomly" happen already.

The problem as noted previously is that we eventually then fall into the trap of what is gamey, what is unnatural etc. If one only removes all the little things that the player have found out to game the system (so to speak) you are just punishing the player over and over again and eventually that will just be less fun. Not to mention I, and others, would probably not share all the little quirks (or tips-n-tricks) of the game since in that regard we wouldn't want them to be fixed. Or they don't want to get into the whole discussion of if it's abusing the game or whatnot. It is what it is. No matter the system created I'm fairly sure we'll figure out ways to game the mechanics in our favor. It's just part of the game.
 
- Tercio: -1 CS (now 24)

The Samurai now has more CS than the unit it upgrades to (25 vs 24).

I have not tried to play as the Netherlands yet but with them in game they seem to bork themselves hard since their whole thing is importing luxuries. Which they apparently don't. They should be living the dream now then with all the duplicates they could get. But they don't from what I can tell. Or at least they don't want to buy my duplicates. Money doesn't appear to be an issue for them as they are making decent GPT. I assume other similar luxury and trade abilities are similarly borked. Even tho many of them depend on traderoutes instead of specific items, so they are probably saved in that regard.

The Netherlands AI in my game now tries to give luxuries for free to me. Maybe they're doing the same to other AIs.
 
Yeah, this is very gamey. Exploit even. Is it really a good thing to have in the game?

It'd be better if CS quests and cities demands were not limited to resources you don't have. Then if you already have a resource and a city demand it or CS give you a quest for that, it'd complete automatically. That would incentivise to have as many resources as possible instead of not wanting a resource for a potential quest, which is very gamey and unnatural.
I agree it does feel artificial and I can agree it's not very fun after seeing the results of the playtesting. But it is a fair valuation given the current mechanics. The slight benefits of more happiness are outweighed.

The solution is to change the mechanics so that more luxuries are always better.

I'm okay with changing WLTKD to include resources you already have (though not locally). I'm also open to any other ideas on how to make luxuries valuable enough to justify their purchase.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom