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New Version - December 18th (12-18)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Dec 19, 2018.

  1. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Definitely, yes. But I ask myself, how able the AI is to react on it.
    I had a OB treaty with Arabia and was able to plunder over 10 trade units. He is sending now 3 of his trade units to me (I have only 3 coastal cities and he's isolated on an island with CS). My ships and a explorer are sitting on all his possible trade routes. He still send trade routes out and try to use internals, but after the expire of my OB with him and a diplomatic penalty of - 400, I had to pay only 3 gold for his OB and plunder every used trade route not targeting me.
     
    black213 likes this.
  2. Leondegrance

    Leondegrance Prince

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    I go tall with Morocco. As you can expect a Tradition starter with emphasis on culture. But I guess can be played wide too. Is open Civ to various tactics as their Unique is broad and not too specialized like some other Civs. I think Morocco is good to start learning the game with as it is flexible.

    No objection on the razing ability. On theory is powerful, as if Morocco is not already feeling strong. The thing is I don't quite understand how it works. I think you have not to be seen by the host Civ's units. And then requires to be deep in foreign territory with open borders, to localize the TR, to find where the camel's position, place scout on top and then pillage. Takes time to do all this but yeah very satisfying when done without getting busted.
     
  3. Leondegrance

    Leondegrance Prince

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    Doesn't he declare you a war or something ? I am not familiar with the numeric modifiers, I turn the transparency off, but I guess - 400 sounds a lot.

    By the way, the OB agreement sometimes says "impossible" if you are at the negotiation screen and click on his left OB. This confused me for a while as being … impossible to reach open borders. But then I realized that when you click OB on your side as well and add few money it gets accepted. So little bit misleading that. Usually when you see impossible it means no matter what you counter it is impossible. But not with OBs even if it says impossible.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
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  4. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    I dunno if the penalty is always appearing or only if they see me. I thought it's always. Cause every time your trade route or a trade route to you is plundered, you get a notification with all involved civs. I will try to check that, but I think it's always.

    Nothing I've ever seen reached that value. You noticed all this hate if you have a different ideology to someone? This causes a value of - 80. So, he should hate me to hell and 3 times back, but still trade with me atleast OB. He's obviously going CV and maybe valuing the open borders bonus higher, but I hardly believe that.
     
  5. Leondegrance

    Leondegrance Prince

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    I started a game with Morocco too and pretty promising start here. I will pay more attention to the pillage mechanics too.

    But if you have transparency on you can figure out where all the hate is coming from by looking at a modifier named "you stole from us" or something like this. I remember that much after Portugal caught me once.
     
  6. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Now -680, and they are still friendly and trade with me. Still sitting there with my units and gaining 500 gold for each of their trade units feels a bit cheating. If this would be a human, he would declare war on me or didnt give me OB and use only save internal trade routes. I dont think this behavior should be normal.
     
    black213 likes this.
  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The AI is lying to you if they're showing a friendly face. It's called deception.

    G
     
  8. Leondegrance

    Leondegrance Prince

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    I am very unlucky here in mid-Classical. I see them camels moving around but can't cross paths. They are playing some tricks on me and change their trajectory when they see my scout and never come back to the same spot. It is cat and mouse game.

    Maybe once I reach OB then the catch game will start becoming viable. But I highly doubt I would be able to remain in stealth. The map is starting to populate with units everywhere.

    My treasury is really low and I can hear the drums of war echoing in the air. Elizabeth reported Arabia who is right next to me is plotting against me and I am reinforcing the border patrol now.

    I see now where the hate is coming from. All from pillaging him. You heard G, you better put your fleet on high alert. But still, you made a fortune out of him so far.
     
  9. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Not bad so far, but do you think the AI should still trade their OB with me?
    No problem military wise. I have a perfect defensive position, Assyria in the west and Sweden+Portugal in the east are separated by huge mountain ranges. Thanks to Treasure Fleet, Great Lighthouse and a good sized fleed, any invasion attempts would fail. Iam also ahead of him a bit military wise.
     
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  10. kkkitten

    kkkitten Chieftain

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    I think they sometimes do that to actually send military units in your borders and declare war. Dunno if that's the case. Usually an indicator that they actually hate your guts is if you try buying one of their luxuries; they'll give you ridiculous prices
     
  11. Grabbl

    Grabbl Prince

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    It probably shouldn't, but I can imagine that especially Arabia values the tourism bonus from open borders quite high in the late game. But in that case, it shouldn't build more trade routes than the one it can trade with you, of course (or rather: a human wouldn't do that).
     
  12. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    This makes me think: since I never play with transparent diplomacy, I always need to gauge/guess how impactful certain actions really are with the AI and I think I've probably been overzealous with my espionage activities and possibly my warmongering.

    So I'm thinking about turning TD on for my next game to help me gauge penalties for the future (where I want to turn it off again), but I have a question for the people who use it often: would one playthrough with TD be representative enough for this to work or do the penalty values for individual actions such as warmongering and tech stealing vary greatly between games (making it hard to get a feel for them from just one game)?
     
  13. Leondegrance

    Leondegrance Prince

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    Good job. As others have stated by now, the AI battles very well on land. It battles without mercy, like a human can smell the blood and the closer you are to defeat and losing the more viscious the AI fights. They position smart, blockade hexes smart, blockade units and use siege weaponry competently.

    Just beat me up good, I lost a whole city. What a shame. But yeah good job with the AI.
     
  14. Leondegrance

    Leondegrance Prince

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    I used it initially for exactly the reasons you mention. To learn how severe certain actions are by looking the modifiers after certain diplomatic incident.

    But, as G mentioned, that is not the whole picture as apparently the AI can be deceiving you. And I guess too that it can be also bribed and become unpredictable at moments.
     
  15. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    The diplo modifier for killing trade units reached -1360. Never seen such a high number, and nothing in the game would be able to compensate that. But still..... they offer me a OB for OB.
    Gaining one of their last luxuries of wine would cost me 70 gold, so, I think the modifier is working with huge pressure.
     
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  16. Leondegrance

    Leondegrance Prince

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    This is weird. Harun is being robbed at plain sight, he keeps sending trade ships straight into your ambush, he acknowledges it and keeps doing, at the same time keeping open borders.

    However let's look at it from this perspective. Look at him, he is isolated on an big continent all alone and has nobody to trade with. He is desperate to trade for income and he may be aiming at cultural domination. If he has picked artistry probably that is his path to victory. So he needs to send his ships to you. He has no use to internalize them likely at this stage of the game. What can he do is the question ? What would you do if you switch places with him ? Maybe send patroling ships to guard the trade ships ?

    This is a case scenario where Ahmad al Mansur completely trashes a Civ via his pillaging ability.

    It appears something else is taking precedence over the diplo modifiers. Something of bigger priority thus making him prefer peace to war. It may be his victory condition taking over precedence. I have no idea how conflicts of interest are handled.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  17. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Play a few games with it on, until you are confident you see patterns, rather than exceptions.

    TD is pretty much the whole picture. Again, you can determine what influences the AI, and how much. But it doesn't (and shouldn't) allow you to predict Ai response. The game isn't that deterministic.

    TD also does not help you gauge what "friendly" means — those adjectives are mostly unreliable. It's the literally hidden stuff that TD reveals.
     
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  18. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Plundered now 42 trade units of him, -1620 penalty. He still is friendly. I cant count the money I gained from him, but it must be over 30.000. Combining all plundered trade units, I may come over 50.000, maybe 60.000, but the most comes from him.
    To understand his decision making, I checked the tourismn, and even without the trade routes to others, hes relative doing well. Well enough I was considering to not make any OB more with him, cause CV wise Iam his major competitor.
    My fleet is big enough to kill his trade units out of his borders and as you can see, I have enough money and cant spend it. Now the Inka brought travel ban into the world congress and it passed, they are now kinda out of the game.
    It seems he needs the +40% open border modifier to overcome my culture generation, so its understandable. But he could simply stop producing trade units and use the hammer for processes. Or send his trade units to the plenty CS on his continent, protecting them with units. I would build a snake of units on the path of my trade units to protect them. But I think hes simply unable to counter or realize Moroccos UA.
     
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  19. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    Is he sending any trade routes to you?
     
  20. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Yes. He is able to send 3 trade units towards me (I have 3 coastal cities) and hes using this maximum.
    Hes trying to use more trade units and build them in different cities but Iam able to plunder them after 1 or 2 turns.
     

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