New Version - February 17th (2-17)

[John.B.C]

I work 3 incense and have a market in samoa; one of my three cities. I still lack 2.68! This can't be right huh?

Then there is my Capital and it just seems like a lost cause. I have a market and I'm working the merchant but it makes no difference:

Then there is distress, and it seem to get out of hand as well. The only reasonable yield seem to be science and culture. No problem at all. But then perhaps this is normal? I don't know.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

WTF..... how is this possible? I didnt changed anything in min distance setting...... is it Map dependant? (Archipelago)

 

[Rekyr]

Hotfix posted for @Avendis CTD. Savegame compatible. (2-17-2).

Link: https://mega.nz/#F!DMsxkDYI!zSpR9CHpmAfWyIvMXaN3pw

G

I can't see the 2-17-2 version there.

 

[hokath]

@John it certainly feels bad that such a city should still be getting unhappiness from poverty, I agree. Its probably "normal" in the sense that you're in the early game with 4 (?) cities and only 1 unhappiness.
@BiteInTheMark I think it is map size dependent. Are you on small?

Guys don't forget to put huge pictures behind spoiler tags

 

[John.B.C]

@John it certainly feels bad that such a city should still be getting unhappiness from poverty, I agree. Its probably "normal" in the sense that you're in the early game with 4 (?) cities and only 1 unhappiness.
@BiteInTheMark I think it is map size dependent. Are you on small?

Guys don't forget to put huge pictures behind spoiler tags

Oh, sorry I'll put it behind a spoiler tag next time.

I play on large map. But perhaps as you say, it will sort it self out later on. I'll have to play a game and adapt to it, to see where it leads.

 

[Rekk]

Is it possible for a city to ever get above the threshold of even one need in the best case scenario? For example, poverty: choose early gold yield civ, start next to gold, beeline markets and external trade route, beeline gold yield policies, take gold-yield pantheon.

If you can't even get above the unhappiness threshold in this case, then I think ancient era unhappiness could use some looking at. It feels bad to strive for an unattainable goal, even if this is what the initial buffer happiness is for.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

I think sentiment is the term you're looking for.

well, at that point you might as well simplify to Happiness.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Does it really have to be like this?
A 15 strength city shot at a 6 CS / 15 RCS Dromon and do only 10 dmg?

Spoiler :

If you can't even get above the unhappiness threshold in this case, then I think ancient era unhappiness could use some looking at. It feels bad to strive for an unattainable goal, even if this is what the initial buffer happiness is for.

The early game unhappiness is so annoying huge. I think thats the reason why AI settle so slowly. You cant expand to an acceptable number of cities without getting deep into -10 to -20 later on.

 

[Phuc Nguyen]

Does it really have to be like this?
A 15 strength city shot at a 6 CS / 15 RCS Dromon and do only 10 dmg?

Spoiler :

The early game unhappiness is so annoying huge. I think thats the reason why AI settle so slowly. You cant expand to an acceptable number of cities without getting deep into -10 to -20 later on.

I think it’s more about your playstyle than about game balance. Early game you don’t have enough techs, workers to improve luxury resources. You can’t connect cities quick enough to negate isolation. Though you always want to grow as fast as possible without thinking about consequences. That’s why you shouldn’t overexpand and overgrow in early game or else you need to face the trade-off: unhappiness. Besides of that, neighbours get angry at you for overexpanding and you can’t defend well with lots of cities early game. So, bro-tips: don’t overexpand and there is the avoid grow check box in the city management screen.

 

[tu_79]

I don't get what the happiness tooltip is saying.

Copenhaguen (captured) produces 42 and has 15 .
Tooltip says I produce 2.8 per , and that's correct.
Then Needs: 5.25 per , I'll discuss this later.
And deficit is 42.45 .
All this is causing 2 in the city.

I should think that deficit is (5.25 - 2.8) * 15 = 36.75

But also, my median cities have 15 and are producing around 60 each one. So, the median need should be 4 per , not 5.25 as the tooltip is saying.
Even looking at the mean value, my empire produces 632 per turn and my total population is 208 in 15 cities. So, mean culture productivity is 3.04 per .

IIRC, the number of unhappy people in the city scaled potentially with the size of the city, but productivity comparison is done before that. So, what's going wrong? How is 'Deficit' calculated? Why are needs so high, when the median values are not that high?

 

[Rekk]

The needs per citizen is affected by the total needs modifiers, noted at the bottom of the tooltip. Does that change anything?

If the culture produced by your median city is correct, then it should mean that Copenhagen's total needs modifier for culture is around 31%.

I don't know what is causing the discrepancy in deficits. I also wish I knew how the breakpoints for when each unhappiness is added, although a deficit of 40 seems very high to get that second unhappiness.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Ok, ive done a testrun with AI only.
Large Pangäa map, 10 civs and 10 CS. I wanted to test how fast and much the AI is settling if they have enough space, but this testrun shows something completly different I didnt expected.
The AI is absolutly terrible in facing barbarians... I was watching mainly morocco, cause they had an awesome start spot, so the following list isnt complete:
Rome lost 4 Worker and a Settler
Morocco lost a settler and 2 Worker and atleast 3 pathfinder
Iroques lost 5 worker
Greeks lost atleast 3 worker and a settler

 

[Gazebo]

Ok, ive done a testrun with AI only.
Large Pangäa map, 10 civs and 10 CS. I wanted to test how fast and much the AI is settling if they have enough space, but this testrun shows something completly different I didnt expected.
The AI is absolutly terrible in facing barbarians... I was watching mainly morocco, cause they had an awesome start spot, so the following list isnt complete:
Rome lost 4 Worker and a Settler
Morocco lost a settler and 2 Worker and atleast 3 pathfinder
Iroques lost 5 worker
Greeks lost atleast 3 worker and a settler

@ilteroi has been working on a hotfix for that, removal of a bunch of legacy AI code accidentally pulled danger estimation out for civvy units.

G

 

[pineappledan]

So maybe the reason they aren’t expanding in your games is because the barbs are rocking them?

 

[Gazebo]

So maybe the reason they aren’t expanding in your games is because the barbs are rocking them?

Possibly - 10/10 on large pangaea means a LOT of empty space for barbs to spawn, I'd guess that you're looking at 3x or 4x the number of camps with all that unclaimed territory. I typically test on continents (as I'm looking at invasion logistics quite often), where you don't see as much open space.

G

 

[Gazebo]

Is this more or less confusing?

Specifically, the part where I highlight that the deficit is what turns into unhappiness.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Is this more or less confusing?

View attachment 518565

Specifically, the part where I highlight that the deficit is what turns into unhappiness.

G

It says how much you are above Culture need, but not how much over Science.

 

[Gazebo]

It says how much you are above Culture need, but not how much over Science.

I can fix that. But what about the (4 unhappy) or (3 unhappy) after the deficit - is that okay? I've included the proviso that you can't have more unhappy than exists in the city, do I need to have those values be the 'actual' unhappiness or is it okay to show that there's more 'pending' poverty unhappiness after the distress unhappiness?

G

 

[civplayer33]

One confusing aspect (for me) was that I didn't realize that the "unhappiness counter" went through the list from top to bottom (I assume) and since it's capped at #citizens it will cause, in your example, 3 from Distress and 1 from Poverty despite the Poverty deficit being higher.
So yes, for new players and also existing ones that didn't know this, adding the "pending unhappiness" thing as in the screenshot and making sure the player understands that is capped at number of citizens should do the trick.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I can fix that. But what about the (4 unhappy) or (3 unhappy) after the deficit - is that okay? I've included the proviso that you can't have more unhappy than exists in the city, do I need to have those values be the 'actual' unhappiness or is it okay to show that there's more 'pending' poverty unhappiness after the distress unhappiness?

G

Seems pretty clear to me, so it's probably okay.