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New Version - February 17th (2-17)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Feb 17, 2019.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Here's an example from a test game, continents, standard speed, king, turn 135. AI is having no problem expanding:

    upload_2019-2-20_22-28-24.png
     
  2. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    Iam not really sure if taking only the own civ median is such a good idea. This is a battle against yourself. Raising the yields in the upper 51% of your empire will automatically raise your unhappiness in the rest of the empire. And while being above the median didn't give anything happiness wise, everything below gives unhappiness.

    If I rise every yield in my empire by 50%, my people should be happier in general, cause my empire is now better than others. But with this system, my happiness decrease, cause the flat difference from the worse half of my empire is now bigger than the median.
    Median 5---> 7, 5
    Poor City 2 ---> 3
    Unhappiness 3 ---> 4,5
     
    dylansan likes this.
  3. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    If you always test your games on the same map type with not much space to expand, you will never see this issue. 3 guys have only 4 cities. Did you also check which policy trees they take? A Progress Arabia with only 3 cities in my game didn't make any sense.
     
  4. Cat-du-fromage

    Cat-du-fromage Chieftain

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    I notice from multiplayer games, AI have different behavior with human, once I kick all humans and start the game, AIs isolated on islands expand much more than those close to me.
    Edit : maybe we just scare them :p
     
  5. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    I used to have to invest a fair bit with my siplsibl units to get a return and it was worth it. I guess I won't have to any more? Easy-peasy now - too easy.
     
  6. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    Gazebo why are you testing on a small (or tiny?) map with standard-tier amount of civs/city states? This is an anomalous, unreliable testing environment. The amount of cities every single civ has here is a result of there being no place to expand for anyone so of course both continents are filled, it only takes roughly 4 cities for each civ to take all the possible space. You can't know if they fill it just like so on a regular map people actually play with a typical amount of civs. it's very small compared to what they should have on standard. What your picture shows can only prove BiteInTheMark's argument.

    Siplsibl confirmed next to be added to VP
     
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    I don't see it as happiness. I think it's the empire governability, and having bigger inequalities inside the empire makes governance harder, no matter how much quality life has improved for the people.

    If we want to reduce inequalities, we have to invest more in secondary cities, and let the more developed ones producing units. Not the most efficient thing, but this allows for more controlled population.
     
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Huh? This is a standard map. Or you jokes make?

    G
     
  9. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    no it ain't, it's small

    How come I had 64 cities in the end of my last French gameplay on standard map with plenty of space left, usually having huge distance between cities and had tons of place for new ones (I'd easily have 70 or more if I settled in the end) when it's not even possible to place 40 cities on this map because there's CSs? The picture's view is effectively showing 1/4th of the playable land and it seems small.

    Maybe it's just that the sea level is very high here or that Communitas looks different or something, though, but it sure seems very small.
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    upload_2019-2-21_10-8-48.png

    It's standard. And I don't exclusively test on continents, but it is my default.

    G
     
  11. myles718

    myles718 Chieftain

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    Can some please tell me what happened about the Hot Fix ?
     
  12. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    Biggest AI I've seen on standard continents map had almost 30 cities. It was Mongolia who ate almost all the city states.
     
  13. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    Yeah I know, it's just that the amount of land is very small compared to what I'm used to. Like two thirds of this is water.
     
  14. civplayer33

    civplayer33 Chieftain

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    There seem to be some hidden factors in how needs are calculated, which are clearly still confusing people; can we get some comment on those, please? I'm just trying to understand how the needs work, exactly. Take the following example:
    Spoiler before growth :
    Happiness_before_growth.jpg
    Spoiler after growth :
    Happiness_after_growth.jpg

    This is a VP (2-17) only game and Moscow is the only city; happiness is recalculated after growth, so the second screenshot, which was taken directly after growth, should explain why the needs values are as they appear; it does not, unfortunately. As you can see, the needs after growth are increased from their base by (34+15+1+3+5 =) 58%. The base is supposed to be the empire median, which means it's what the city is producing since it's the only city. By that logic, the Distress-related need is actually almost correct (but still off by +0.03, but that could be explained by rounding in the UI), but the other needs are way too high. Illiteracy should be at 3.70 (it is at 4.48) and Poverty should be at 2.63 (it is at 3.36).

    So what factors are at play here that are not displayed in the tool tip?
     
  15. dylansan

    dylansan Chieftain

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    That information is there, but I'm saying it should be the most obvious information. The potential unhappiness is portrayed as extraneous information, when in fact it's more valuable than the actual unhappiness, which the player has little control over. As it stands, nothing in the tooltip makes it clear there is 13 potential unhappiness that needs to be fixed, unless you look to the values in parenthesis and add them all up, which no one will do when they want a quick overview of their city's problems. Then there's the civ-wide happiness summary, which doesn't even include that info, so you can't calculate it at all. You could be suffering immensely from illiteracy but not see it because distress and poverty, while lower, take priority in the summary.
    But does that make a difference to gameplay? Does targeting distress give more of a benefit than targeting illiteracy? The goal of the UI should be to communicate to the user what info is required to make decisions. Telling the user there's 0 unhappiness from science does not effectively communicate that science is lacking in the city and will cause unhappiness as soon as distress is reduced or the pop grows. I'm assuming there might be some hierarchy effects where distress causes some problems and illiteracy causes others, but 9 times out of 10 the player just wants to reduce overall unhappiness, and in that case it doesn't matter which one you target.

    Each yield's "potential unhappiness" is the value the player actually has control of. Actual unhappiness will change depending on the other needs, but not when the player actually targets those yields. You can't decrease 3 poverty if the potential poverty is 7 and you build a market. But you can decrease the potential poverty and understand the relationship between your action and the result.

    If you insist on the hierarchy (I see the logic, but if it doesn't affect strategy for fixing needs, I think it's obfuscating things), then at least highlight the potential unhappiness and put the "effective" unhappiness to the side. The info will all still be there, but it will be much clearer where a cities deficits lie.
     
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  16. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Warlord

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    Hey, any chance you can make Hellblazer's map script to work in VP? It really generates great maps and has amazing logics for civ placement, but does not work with VP
     
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  17. civplayer33

    civplayer33 Chieftain

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    @dylansan If you don't get actual unhappiness from illiteracy then illiteracy isn't the problem you should be focusing on primarily. Ideally you want to get rid of all unhappiness, of course, but that's not going to happen in normal games, so you should focus on the yield that causes your current unhappiness and once you've mitigated that to a sufficient degree the UI will tell you what the next priority should be. It makes no sense to build libraries solely for illiteracy mitigation if your citizens are all suffering from distress and poverty, because your unhappiness won't decrease despite you taking action (since it's the wrong action); so, the UI communicating to the player what causes unhappiness should focus on what actually causes your current unhappiness; anything else would confuse people to much, because it might make them think that, in my example, by focusing on illiteracy they will reduce unhappiness when they won't. If you want to plan ahead for when you dealt with distress and poverty, you can check the additional info that is being added to the tool tips now.
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    The tooltip is correct BUT there’s a hidden 10% modifier that shouldn’t be added. It was getting added by accident as of this version. I’m removing it for the hot fix. Hopefully this evening.

    G
     
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  19. ThanOscar

    ThanOscar Chieftain

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    Is there a planned trade route yield change table? looking forward to seeing more features being added, good work as usual :)
     
  20. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    At the same time, building constabularies to reduce distress doesn't reduce unhappiness either. The person who was unhappy about basic needs just shifts to being unhappy about poverty. In this situation, it doesn't matter what need reducing buildings you queue up; the city is stuck in an unhappiness=population state until you can reduce the total unhappiness to below the population.
     

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