I think this is a reasonable idea. I don't mind that wide has to "pay more" in terms of infrastructure than small, so if they need to build some PWs...but those few PWs get the job done, than that works for me.
New Version - July 17th (7-17)
- Thread starter Gazebo
- Start date
- Status
I think this is a reasonable idea. I don't mind that wide has to "pay more" in terms of infrastructure than small, so if they need to build some PWs...but those few PWs get the job done, than that works for me.
Just finished up an India game. Standard Continents on Emperor.
I haven't been this dominant in a long time! I went progress with spirit of the desert on a flood plains start. Got cathedrals and my farms were rolling! The basic jist was....I got to naga mala and proceeded to steam roll my continent. I eventually vassalized most of the continent. Austria tried to get uppity with me, thinking that just because she had married off some brothers to these CS people that suddenly she owned them....bah! I got to air power and that was that.
I am almost never ahead in tech in my plays, this is the first time I've been ahead in tech in a very long time, let alone this far ahead. It was fun going infantry (real infantry) against field guns...for once I could actually crash in and not immediately die. well...ok I got over excited and still lost a guy, but not as bad as normal
Also, first time I've really been spied on heavily, and holy crap the AI likes to steal great works. I lost 4 of them in 20 turns! For once that rationalism policy that reduces foreign spies came in handy.
So a few notes:
1) I think India was overbuffed. Having all the free hammers combined with already strong growth would be good on its own, but the Naga Mala is a seriously strong UU. I think they can go back to old India.
2) State Craft tourism is really really low. I hadn't realized it until I focused on TRs to CS this game. Completely a TR to a CS gives 70 tourism, compared to the 680 or so I was getting from a regular civ. That might have worked back in the day when tourism was just to one civ, but now that is affects all civs its far too low.
3) Last game I finished science victory on Turn 506. This game I was at Turn 393 at had gotten the last tech, so lets just say an even 20 turns to finish up. This time I got the +33% scientists instead of the +33% writers WC policy, so that clearly made a difference, as well as having 3 vassals and the most cities by far in the game.
4) I give the AI credit for one last ditch effort. Even though I dominated the WC (+10 votes from holy land!) the AI managed to get everyone together to do a sanction on me. It was too little too late, but I give them credit for trying to slow me down.
5) The last 2 games I have had a dominant airforce and not a single plane from any AI. This game I was ahead in tech so that may make sense, but its something I'm watching for.
6) I've been switching out Overrun lately for Mobility or even Drill I. I think overrun is too situational. Mobility is a solid bonus, and Drill give you straight up CS both on offense AND defense, which is clutch for infantry units.
I haven't been this dominant in a long time! I went progress with spirit of the desert on a flood plains start. Got cathedrals and my farms were rolling! The basic jist was....I got to naga mala and proceeded to steam roll my continent. I eventually vassalized most of the continent. Austria tried to get uppity with me, thinking that just because she had married off some brothers to these CS people that suddenly she owned them....bah! I got to air power and that was that.
I am almost never ahead in tech in my plays, this is the first time I've been ahead in tech in a very long time, let alone this far ahead. It was fun going infantry (real infantry) against field guns...for once I could actually crash in and not immediately die. well...ok I got over excited and still lost a guy, but not as bad as normal
Also, first time I've really been spied on heavily, and holy crap the AI likes to steal great works. I lost 4 of them in 20 turns! For once that rationalism policy that reduces foreign spies came in handy.
So a few notes:
1) I think India was overbuffed. Having all the free hammers combined with already strong growth would be good on its own, but the Naga Mala is a seriously strong UU. I think they can go back to old India.
2) State Craft tourism is really really low. I hadn't realized it until I focused on TRs to CS this game. Completely a TR to a CS gives 70 tourism, compared to the 680 or so I was getting from a regular civ. That might have worked back in the day when tourism was just to one civ, but now that is affects all civs its far too low.
3) Last game I finished science victory on Turn 506. This game I was at Turn 393 at had gotten the last tech, so lets just say an even 20 turns to finish up. This time I got the +33% scientists instead of the +33% writers WC policy, so that clearly made a difference, as well as having 3 vassals and the most cities by far in the game.
4) I give the AI credit for one last ditch effort. Even though I dominated the WC (+10 votes from holy land!) the AI managed to get everyone together to do a sanction on me. It was too little too late, but I give them credit for trying to slow me down.
5) The last 2 games I have had a dominant airforce and not a single plane from any AI. This game I was ahead in tech so that may make sense, but its something I'm watching for.
6) I've been switching out Overrun lately for Mobility or even Drill I. I think overrun is too situational. Mobility is a solid bonus, and Drill give you straight up CS both on offense AND defense, which is clutch for infantry units.
Just finished up an India game. Standard Continents on Emperor.
I haven't been this dominant in a long time! I went progress with spirit of the desert on a flood plains start. Got cathedrals and my farms were rolling! The basic jist was....I got to naga mala and proceeded to steam roll my continent. I eventually vassalized most of the continent. Austria tried to get uppity with me, thinking that just because she had married off some brothers to these CS people that suddenly she owned them....bah! I got to air power and that was that.
I am almost never ahead in tech in my plays, this is the first time I've been ahead in tech in a very long time, let alone this far ahead. It was fun going infantry (real infantry) against field guns...for once I could actually crash in and not immediately die. well...ok I got over excited and still lost a guy, but not as bad as normal
Also, first time I've really been spied on heavily, and holy crap the AI likes to steal great works. I lost 4 of them in 20 turns! For once that rationalism policy that reduces foreign spies came in handy.
So a few notes:
1) I think India was overbuffed. Having all the free hammers combined with already strong growth would be good on its own, but the Naga Mala is a seriously strong UU. I think they can go back to old India.
2) State Craft tourism is really really low. I hadn't realized it until I focused on TRs to CS this game. Completely a TR to a CS gives 70 tourism, compared to the 680 or so I was getting from a regular civ. That might have worked back in the day when tourism was just to one civ, but now that is affects all civs its far too low.
3) Last game I finished science victory on Turn 506. This game I was at Turn 393 at had gotten the last tech, so lets just say an even 20 turns to finish up. This time I got the +33% scientists instead of the +33% writers WC policy, so that clearly made a difference, as well as having 3 vassals and the most cities by far in the game.
4) I give the AI credit for one last ditch effort. Even though I dominated the WC (+10 votes from holy land!) the AI managed to get everyone together to do a sanction on me. It was too little too late, but I give them credit for trying to slow me down.
5) The last 2 games I have had a dominant airforce and not a single plane from any AI. This game I was ahead in tech so that may make sense, but its something I'm watching for.
6) I've been switching out Overrun lately for Mobility or even Drill I. I think overrun is too situational. Mobility is a solid bonus, and Drill give you straight up CS both on offense AND defense, which is clutch for infantry units.
1.) The naga-malla is a secret weapon that people seemed to overlook. UU being OP != revert UA.
G
BiteInTheMark
Deity
Wasn't there a claim, PW will be only an emergency button for bad play or unlucky situations? Now it will get a requisite for domination victory?
I "feel" that splitting all the global happiness among all cities is already some kind of wide restriction. Rising the empire modificator would be double dipping.
Last edited:
Is there any difference between January version (global happiness) and this version in regards to wide unhappiness? Both give more unhappiness for going wide via increasing needs.
I'm asking because I still haven't completed my 1-15 game and am planning to start a new one in this version (or the next one) afterwards. That version has both pop modifier and empire modifier, but I'm not getting much unhappiness from citizens despite deliberately growing a lot (Celts going Progress/Fealty/Rationalism/Order with 8 cities+2 puppets), while some people were complaining happiness was too hard to manage around that time.
Will I be in trouble doing the same thing in this version?
I'm asking because I still haven't completed my 1-15 game and am planning to start a new one in this version (or the next one) afterwards. That version has both pop modifier and empire modifier, but I'm not getting much unhappiness from citizens despite deliberately growing a lot (Celts going Progress/Fealty/Rationalism/Order with 8 cities+2 puppets), while some people were complaining happiness was too hard to manage around that time.
Will I be in trouble doing the same thing in this version?
The UA didn't change. I feel like India has probably the best UU, probably the best UB, and a very good UA.
Exactly! So in my old patch game, I grew cities huge just for the sake of growing them: ignoring specialists, military units and non-happiness related buildings. This was not the best strategy for sure, but on top of this to get additional penalties made no sense. Is this part fixed now? I also support PW-s to counter wide, since again, building PW-s is time consuming and they have no other benefits than the unhappiness reduction itself. So I don’t think that this would make going wide a dominant strategy. And lastly fix the slow promotion gain rate by applying some penalty for high level units if needed. Point is, make every sub domain of game mechanics possible to max out but with penalties! I think that is the core element of making a game fun.
BiteInTheMark
Deity
UU = agree
UB = above average, food gets more and more worthless the later the game goes, if you stop working the farms later on, you lose the benefits, Hanse is the best UB
UA = growth bonus from population can completely disappear if growth is stopped, extra pressure from population is worthless on fractured or island maps, prophet cost reduction is partially eaten by the fact you can't use missionaries, pantheon on turn 1 didn't give time to spot surrounding area. A "good" UA looks different.
If all of the kit of India is that good, I may ask why everyone is rating India in AI hands only as mediocre or below civ.
Is he still weak this patch? The AI roleplays Ghandi and is too peaceful, India is a good aggresive civ even without the Naga-Mala rush. IDK if that should change
In an actual game from this patch, not the old one, the Harrappan reservoir gave me more production than the Hanse would throughout medieval era. The turn it was built in the capital it already earned 13 food and 13 hammers. My cities all got 10 farms at least, the only other unique buildings that can give this many yields come much later.
I think you make really bad decisions with India, doing things like taking Mandirs instead of Cathedrals. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe India is bad because I won't work farms in the modern era.
I remember a time where one of VP goals was to make sure the ai could compete and match the players without all the massive bonuses of vanilla and achieve everything the player can. so i ask a simple question, in the ai only games you run, can the ai achieve a domination victory under the current happiness system before the other ais win?
Because of the top of my head in thousands of hours in this mod I have never lost a game to a warmonger civ, heck, I don't think I have ever won a domination victory either because you always randomly win from another victory when you're on your way to the last capital, a huge flaw in the mod in my opinion, but after switching from vanilla deity it was a very nice thing, since there you always need to kill half the world to win deity, but now I really want to pick one of those full warmonger civs and go on a rampage and conquer the world using land, naval and air units but after conquering my first neighbor I am already at a massive happiness loss that only grows bigger every turn, so I ask of you, will I ever be able to see the domination victory screen when playing this mod?
Because of the top of my head in thousands of hours in this mod I have never lost a game to a warmonger civ, heck, I don't think I have ever won a domination victory either because you always randomly win from another victory when you're on your way to the last capital, a huge flaw in the mod in my opinion, but after switching from vanilla deity it was a very nice thing, since there you always need to kill half the world to win deity, but now I really want to pick one of those full warmonger civs and go on a rampage and conquer the world using land, naval and air units but after conquering my first neighbor I am already at a massive happiness loss that only grows bigger every turn, so I ask of you, will I ever be able to see the domination victory screen when playing this mod?
I think you're right that the AI India is a different beast compared to a human. I'm playing the newest patch as Venice and India is my neighbor (so India has room for an extra city and has a neighbor who won't attack him because I'm playing peacefully) and he's pretty mediocre. Egypt, Polynesia, Portugal, and Iroquois are the big dogs at ~turn 185.
All this is to say that I'm not sure he deserves a nerf unless it's something that hurts a human's play through while not affecting the AI.
I’ll say this again, there was no consensus that India was weak before. There were a few people who didn’t like them. Only Venice seemed to have a strong agreement of weakness in AI hands
I just played a conquer heavy Deity game as Persia on the previous patch. I had very little happiness issues conquering the 4 other civs on my continent. I would occasionally drop just below 75% empire happiness but was always able to right the ship and move on. The fact that your happiness tanked after conquering just one neighbor seems weird.
It's not like these games are kinda random and maybe i had a different civ than you, whit different neighbors than you, on a different map than you on a different PATCH VERSION than you, maybe I am just a worse player than you? But you know, you never said you won a domination victory in that game, the very main theme of my post, but your feedback from a single sentence in the middle of my post is welcome! I suck, moving on:
My second question is, why is happiness being used to control growth?
It is a mechanic made so you don't put a city every 3 titles from another a turn the map into a endless blob of cities.
If you wanna growth oto be slower that is very simple, reduce the food, a city should be able to grow as long was it has enough food to feed new citizens, make starvation really maker by killing population faster, but it a city is settled in a territory where is has access to 100 food and every citizen eats 2, them it should be able to attain 50 citizens, if you don't want size 50 cities then make citizens eat 3 or tweak the food yields so that same spot only has 50 food and can thus only sustain size 25 citie.
There is no downside to any other yield in the game, to have a downside on food is just bad game design.
Last edited:
My changes to India were independent of any threads or discussions on India directly - I didn't see India mentioned until after the fact. I changed India's UB largely because I felt it was one-dimensional, and it bloated food yields unnecessarily.
G
BiteInTheMark
Deity
Did I say weak? No, I said, the complete toolkit isnt as good as you said. Its really weird that you try to say India is in a good spot, cause... can I remember you to your own sentence?
And saying others opinion about India isnt objective cause they simply dont like India is cheap.
----------------------------------------------------
Iam fine if Ghandi is roleplaying and be patient as hell with other neighbors actions. But.... Did he need one of the strongest UU in the game for that? Isnt it better to give Ghandi a better toolkit to achieve its goal with completly peaceful abilities instead of a Tiger-Tank in the Renaissance? Its is far more likely that a human will pull an advantage out of the Naga Malla than an AI will, not only by the unwillingness of Ghandi to declare war, but also by the lacking ability of the AI to use them optimally. I would try to remove such discrepancies between human and AI play.
Yes, as said, its a good building, but not the best, cause its scalability is limited, the same as its usage. Iam at the moment in a Portugal game in Renaissance, 6 available trade routes. Using a Hanse would give me around 15 hammers AND 5-12 science in each city (10% of gold is added as science). Available space for farms is very limited cause of a lot of tundra, in total only 22 for 7 cities. In this case, the benefits from the UB of India would be very limited, while the Hanse is a very universal building.
In the previous game with India in 6-2 Version, I had to already replace more and more of my farms with villages and GPTI cause I had too much food. There were ony 3 farms left in my 45 size capital.
I dont know. Iam not interested in competitive deity games. I want to play casual and have fun. I know how to create an efficient empire, and I know which way would be probably more efficient than I sometimes do, but I dont care. Ive seen save games from people who were able to conquer enemies in deity difficulty, but their city and empire management was terrifying bad with inefficient road and village layouts. In my last game with India, Iam the score, tech and policy leader (even one more policy than China). Ive never went activly to war and only captured one city as puppet to hurt an annoying neighbor. It seems Iam not that bad, thats enough for me.
Viralvoid
Warlord
I think, deity on vanilla is like emperor in VP. Anyway, I agree, I've never seen an AI won via domination, but I think It doesn't matter because the game is already interesting even without war. You should simply disable other victory types if you wanted to focus on warring, for that, you can't accidentally win through cultural.
You won't suffer too much on unhappiness if you learn how to control it, I couldn't control it properly that's why I try to minimize any sources of unhappiness and I try to micromanage everything from growth, specialists, workers etc. Excessive conquering consecutively causes lots of unhappiness, that is normal and those captured cities won't meekly submit on your empire, but it will diminish, it is a sign that you have to take a break from war, prepare for the next one and of course, stabilize your unhappy empire.
I think you're just impatient, you wanted to conquer the world on medieval, lol. TBH, domination will become easier and easier as the game progresses, like completing imperialism, then taking autocracy, then bombarding the world with bombers.
Are you a kid?
Happiness is used to control excessive yields from population (specialists etc), and to determine how you manage each city's infrastructure, and ofc, to prevent mindless warmongering. I think you should know how happiness and needs works, like having additional cities increases the empire's needs.
tbh, I have no comment on the first paragraph.
I think you're overreacting on food/growth. It is still important, you can't feed all your citizens/specialists without food, but it doesn't mean that you have to grow your city like a maniac. Just check the good tiles, count it, then aim for that population, grow a little for some specialists. Having 20-pop city is worthless if it also works 20 farms, but having 10-pop cities working quarries, mines, great person tiles, and some farms is more applicable compared to the latter, right?.
ridjack
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2017
- Messages
- 1,000
- Status
