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New Version - July 17th (7-17)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Jul 18, 2019.

  1. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I don't know, all threads usually were like "internal routes suck unless you take the right things", and it's not really a nerf to warmongering. Everyone can use these, it's just they were mostly unappealing unless you take one particular Enhancer and/or Fealty and the problem's only gotten worse now as they'll only turn more situational and niche outside of the right policy choices.

    I don't know, I see it how I always did. Or so I think. I'll check again, but from what I remember, everything is as it always was and the tooltip shows itself properly.
     
  2. andersw

    andersw Emperor

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    That is something wrong with your install.
     
  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Why didn't people listen to us when we said don't change this??? I still don't understand what this change was meant to accomplish. People didn't like the "feel" of getting an instant yield, but they never even discussed how this would torpedo era scaling and how it would combine with policies that boost ITRs. Now you're double-punished unless you get ALL the ITR-boosting policies, which is EXACTLY what the instant boosts was designed to avoid.

    I've been so frustrated by this change, it was completely thoughtless. G made a perfect solution to the ITR problem months ago, and people BEGGED him to make it worse.
    Spoiler @CrazyG :
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
  4. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I also don't like us throwing an entire cool mechanic out of the window for no reason. It was some risk/reward - finish the TR, get yields. Is it sudden? Perhaps, but so is TR Tourism, entire Ottoman UA and somewhat Portuguese, Council/University science, Aqueduct Production, Historic Events as a whole, Statecraft's finisher, Brazil's UA (can get influential very suddenly), etc. I remember many times I tried to time my Missionaries being built in medieval so I don't have to pay more, and suddenly it turns out the tech that took 2 turns finished itself the very next one because a Council and University proc'd, but it's fine and not that bad of an experience - Council shouldn't lose the Science per birth just because of this. This crusade against instant yields, but only in some cases, seems misguided. Sometimes it's fun when the unexpected happens.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
    pineappledan and Kim Dong Un like this.
  5. John.B.C

    John.B.C Warlord

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    If that's the case; I'm at loss, since it has been like this for a few months now. I can install the mod "over and over" again and it wouldn't make a difference.

    How is a bad install even possible?
     
  6. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Did you try verifying integrity of game cache of Civ 5 on Steam?
     
  7. andersw

    andersw Emperor

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    I don't know how ppl mess up their installs (but it seems fairly common), if it's steam, win10, other mods or something else.
    Do you have overlay when you hover units in combat?
    It's maybe just EUI not working as it should.
     
  8. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Maybe because as far as I can tell, you're still the only two complaining?
     
  9. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    We could make it scale with era.

    By the way, I'm still very early on in my game but I am liking the removal of the Progress :c5food: per building. I think you/Bite are missing the point when you calculate what it takes to achieve a late game :c5citizen: and be like "The bonus :c5food:doesn't make any real impact". It slows down the time to reach the next :c5citizen:, which buffs :c5food: because now you need to prioritize tile food for a little bit if you want to grow at a reasonable pace. Before I would literally never prioritize :c5food:outside of the Capital early game as Progress. Building buildings is something that always happens so removing that constant stream of :c5food: is nice and makes early :c5food: feel more consequential.
     
    Legen likes this.
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    To be fair, while the votes were leading towards change, I agree it was not an overwhelming consensus to change it. That said, I felt the same way when we changed it to instant yields. I was like "wait, people were looking for a boost to ITR, not to completely change the mechanism". So I know how you feel. That said, instant yields have problems too, and I do think they are overused in the game right now. It is not a "perfect solution" as you claim.

    Now you said ITRs don't scale with era, they do through buildings. If its not enough scaling that can be changed, but the yields definitely go up as time goes by.
     
  11. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    I was one of the initial advocates against the change, and it's definitely a kick in the balls, especially since I'm warmongering, like SwaggyE pointed out.

    It does already, but it's still trivial. It needs to be buffed if we want them to stay viable without instant yields. Would rather just revert.

    Listen, I don't even care about food routes, but all I asked going into this was to not touch my precious hammers. Those instant hammers were a free buildings worth for some cities, giving me reasons to actually utilize ITR's coming and going from my secondary cities.

    "Look how they massacred my boy!"
     
  12. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    The (almost) every pop = 1 unhappy in most cities point is seemingly reached... 21 cities for me, renaissance. It's looking grim and I know what buildings of this and next eras can do enough to know it is never going to get any better, only worse. Better than previous version's 6-10 cities, but it's still not good. 99% happiness now, but looking at my cities and calculating, if growth is allowed I will slide far below 50

    I'm balling out of control at almost all possible wonders, 10 techs above the rest, vast majority of CSs are my allies, most buildings are present in most of my cities but the newer acquisitions - if those newly gotten ones were unhappy, fine, but my great cities which have so many buildings (nearly all of them) shouldn't wail. Suddenly every growth everywhere will bring 5+ unhappiness, sometimes 8-9 - every city's turned from being almost perfectly happy to an imminent nightmare that can only be stopped by not conceiving citizens. Can't grow anywhere but capital. Poverty/Distress/Boredom are hitting hard. I'm going back to my unhappiness fix, I don't want to play with growth stopped everywhere ever again, that's just not fun.
     
  13. undone

    undone Chieftain

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    Is the multiplayer in this version stable? The last version I was getting desyncs every other turn after about turn 150ish (barbs off). I'm playing the 4/30/18 version which is extremely stable but I'd really love to play the newest version. In the multiplayer stability thread there are two names mentioned (daveneye, raohaell666) who were contributing / working on multiplayer stability. I noticed coincidentally enough that they have not contributed to the github repo since basically when the 4/30/18 version released. Is multiplayer stability no longer being worked on?
     
  14. DarkZero

    DarkZero Warlord

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    One of the few things I truly hate about this mod is the instant yield mechanics, I was always against them from the beginning and they can be massive sources of imbalances that are not easily seen, would much rather have yields per turn tham instant yields, they are also extremely messy on the ui and a pain to keep track, to me, the less sources of them the better the mod will be.
     
  15. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    @pineappledan
    You are free to disagree, but claiming it was thoughtless is a false,unnecessary insult. I provided extensive reasons for the change to per turn yields, including AI performance. Now maybe people think ITR are bad now and were bad before, I can't say for sure what people think. What I can say for sure is that ITR were extremely strong last patch and remain strong this patch.

    Here's an ingame example. I have an empire with no bonuses to trade routes currently (no mendicancy, no statecraft, no fealty). Market and caravansary built, customs house and workshop not built.

    My best route to another civ is 16 gold, 5 science.
    Production internal is 14 hammers.
    Food internal is 19 food.
    Best city state route is 10 gold, 6 science, 6 culture.
    (all are land routes)

    Here, internal are far stronger than the other options. ETR to a city state is second best, ETR to another civ is garbage until corporations, or if you really want tourism. People are free to share their experiences in game, maybe this is uncommon.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
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  16. Dolen

    Dolen Chieftain

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    Is "14 hammers" far stronger than "10 gold, 6 science, 6 culture"?
     
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  17. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    it is not. It doesn’t really have to be, since ITRs are safer and more consistent, but it’s definitely, unambiguously worse
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
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  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I'm at turn 335 on my current game. Decided to play Poland to see what all the recent fuss is about. Yeah, I think they are just fine. The Winged Hussar as an extremely tactical unit, you have to really think through its moves, but its very solid I found. One thing overlooked is that you can immediately promote it to Formation II, that is 60 CS against knights and lancers, which blows them up. Further, the ducal stables make it very cheap to build, and the extra movement is often overlooked. A few other game notes:

    1) The Fusilier change hasn't really changed anything too much. I've noticed it here and there with a little less damage kind of thing, but for the most part the unit still does with it does (or lack thereof). However, I have noticed the rifleman change. Spain has one of those in a citadel right now, and its a touch nut to crack. G Guns don't do the pain they once did to this unit, so suddenly the difference in tech is making a bigger difference, and I like it. I haven't really noticed any difference with the musketman, it could probably just use another -1 RCS, its just damn strong at that point in the game.

    2) I've been playing more shock style this game, and I personally think overrun is a bad promotion. Here's why, the promotion grants +10% extra flanking bonus. However, it doesn't give straight up +10% CS, so it takes 2 flankers to actually get any value compared to a simple +10% CS promotion. And, no bonus on defense. Honestly I'm starting to wonder if Drill 1 is better than overrun in most situations.

    3) I went progress this game, and didn't really notice the loss of food. I think the reason for that is because with 5 cities (really couldn't expand early game) I have 0 happiness problems. I've been at 100% the whole game, and most of the time I have a massive growth bonus from happiness.

    4) I think pagodas should give -2 religious unrest. So this game was fun, in that my neighbors Maya and Spain both fought over my soul:) I was hit from every side with missionaries, so once I got to enchance I took pagodas, thinking that for once I would actually have 3 religions to get bonuses off of. It worked, but I'm stuck with 2 or more religious unhappiness a lot of time. Happiness has not been a problem this game, but if its tweaked to where it was, that would be a lot of unhappiness to swallow for the privilege of using my pagada.

    But yeah interesting religious game, since all of the religions had buildings. I've got mosques, mandirs, pagodas, cathedrals, and monasteries in all of my cities.

    5) I think Poland is just fine. The early policy is nice, but when you really feel it is late game. So when you choose your ideology you immediately get 3 policies (1 initial, +2 for Poland). So you immediately gain access to a Tier 2. And then you normally get an Era boost shortly there after, so you start to blitz ahead in policies. I don't think Poland is "awesome" I think they are a nice solid middle of the road civ. Nothing more, nothing less, and perfectly fine.

    6) Spain and I have been fighting all game. Spain has this really annoying river spot that is bottlenecking my forces, so its been impossible to push it (for those who remember that France gain I whined about a few weeks ago, I had flashbacks to that and wisely decided to whole my ground). But now I have taken my navy all the way around the continent and hitting Spain from the other side. We will see how it goes!
     
  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I do have to agree, for that scenario I would take the ETR. I go with the old notion that 10 gold = 5 hammers. So I definitely think 6 science, 6 culture > 9 hammers.
     
  20. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Cause atleast half the people wanted it changed, and there were good reasons to change it. The way how ITR scales AND the way how the Instant yields scales is totally BROKEN.
    Without any benefits, you only generate 25:c5food: OR 20:c5production: in modern era. 2-3 normal citizens are able to farm a comparable amount of yields on normal tiles. In comparison, with all Instant yield buildings, you get 500:c5food: AND 500:c5production: in 25 turns (in modern era). That is 20:c5food: AND 20:c5production: per turn while your trade route only generate 25:c5food: OR 20:c5production:. Effectivly tripling the amount of yields. Thats on the one side broken overpowered, on the other side, by the nature of instant yields, didnt contribute in unhapiness fighting.

    The base yields of ITR were far too low, starting from early mid game on and completly crap in lategame. The ITR modifiers are not set in stone. The base values and its era scaling could have been raised but the modifiers slightly decreased, creating a bit more yields than now for those which use ITR modifiers. It was also a questionable decision, why the starting city would gain the instant yields, and not the target city.
     

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