New Version - March 7th (3-7)

[peterw1987]

For religion pressure, i never spread outside at all, yet i get to choose reformation.

I only have catherdal for extra presure. Other belief is dilligence and zealotry.

Probably my neighbour with no religion love my belief and once they got my religion from trade route, they spread all over the world. Would love to see this happen more often.

 

[peterw1987]

especially given that, as you point out, ships don't heal.

Thats why i never build meele ship.

 

[emdash]

Thats why i never build meele ship.

It's good to have one to take a city, though. I'm just getting into this mod. Finally it's a modpack. I only played a little bit so far.

Melee ships are strong, too, way stronger than vanilla imo, but yea if you are in someone else's land I would keep it back until you take the city, then you can use it to heal.

 

[tu_79]

It's good to have one to take a city, though. I'm just getting into this mod. Finally it's a modpack. I only played a little bit so far.

Melee ships are strong, too, way stronger than vanilla imo, but yea if you are in someone else's land I would keep it back until you take the city, then you can use it to heal.

You must be kidding. Without some melee boat is impossible to break through an enemy fleet. If you only face ranged against ranged, your ships eventually will sink, while the enemy's ones are just getting repaired in his city. Unless you sink all his ships with siege units, but then you don't need ranged ships. Or the very rare situation where enemy coastal city has no ships nearby.
Txurce is playing small, with just a few cities and no focus on military infrastructure, so his army is only a defensive one, and the city can hurt some ships too (at the least it inflicts a wounded status, so your promoted ships do more damage). Three more ships in early classical is enough to keep his cities safe, I think (usually, it only needs to protect one border, and oceans cannot be used yet). A mix of ranged and melee ships is needed, since melee just sinks any ranged ship in two hits (or just one if it can flank), and ranged is just better at sinking transport ships (embarked units) and provide some ranged support from the shores.

 

[ashendashin]

You must be kidding. Without some melee boat is impossible to break through an enemy fleet. If you only face ranged against ranged, your ships eventually will sink, while the enemy's ones are just getting repaired in his city. Unless you sink all his ships with siege units, but then you don't need ranged ships. Or the very rare situation where enemy coastal city has no ships nearby.
Txurce is playing small, with just a few cities and no focus on military infrastructure, so his army is only a defensive one, and the city can hurt some ships too (at the least it inflicts a wounded status, so your promoted ships do more damage). Three more ships in early classical is enough to keep his cities safe, I think (usually, it only needs to protect one border, and oceans cannot be used yet). A mix of ranged and melee ships is needed, since melee just sinks any ranged ship in two hits (or just one if it can flank), and ranged is just better at sinking transport ships (embarked units) and provide some ranged support from the shores.

Not too much of a mix. I usually have as many ranged ships as possible and make just enough melee to keep them safe. A bigger melee focus is if you're behind on tech. Just 2 to 4 is really all that's needed before the ocean becomes a problem (depends on the map I suppose). Anyways, the reason for a bigger range focus is to keep the pounding going as long as possible. If you're defending in a bad spot, you don't want to destroy their units to see them replaced straight away. This gets more prevalent as you up the difficulty, so keep in mind that whittling them down is a good option, albeit a bit risky, which is when melee units come in to chase them down.

 

[emdash]

You must be kidding. Without some melee boat is impossible to break through an enemy fleet. If you only face ranged against ranged, your ships eventually will sink, while the enemy's ones are just getting repaired in his city. Unless you sink all his ships with siege units, but then you don't need ranged ships. Or the very rare situation where enemy coastal city has no ships nearby.
Txurce is playing small, with just a few cities and no focus on military infrastructure, so his army is only a defensive one, and the city can hurt some ships too (at the least it inflicts a wounded status, so your promoted ships do more damage). Three more ships in early classical is enough to keep his cities safe, I think (usually, it only needs to protect one border, and oceans cannot be used yet). A mix of ranged and melee ships is needed, since melee just sinks any ranged ship in two hits (or just one if it can flank), and ranged is just better at sinking transport ships (embarked units) and provide some ranged support from the shores.

haha which part of my post are you disagreeing with?

 

[Txurce]

Not too much of a mix. I usually have as many ranged ships as possible and make just enough melee to keep them safe. A bigger melee focus is if you're behind on tech. Just 2 to 4 is really all that's needed before the ocean becomes a problem (depends on the map I suppose). Anyways, the reason for a bigger range focus is to keep the pounding going as long as possible. If you're defending in a bad spot, you don't want to destroy their units to see them replaced straight away. This gets more prevalent as you up the difficulty, so keep in mind that whittling them down is a good option, albeit a bit risky, which is when melee units come in to chase them down.

I think a high ranged-to-melee ratio is prety common. Pre-Compass, I usually have only one trireme. For me the exceptions are the Dutch and Carthage. I build more with Compass.

In your example are you saying that it makes sense to keep the damaged enemy in the front line so that their healthy units can't hit you... then sink the wounded ones with melees in the next turn, and move up your ranged?

 

[ashendashin]

In your example are you saying that it makes sense to keep the damaged enemy in the front line so that their healthy units can't hit you... then sink the wounded ones with melees in the next turn, and move up your ranged?

Yup. Gotta get out of the bad position somehow.

 

[tu_79]

Yup. Gotta get out of the bad position somehow.

Makes sense, unless you are next to the enemy city, in three or four turns it can put 4 to 5 ships back to fighting shape.

I agree with your rate melee-ranged. I didn't say the mix was 50/50.

 

[Workerspam]

Interesting to see how others play. I frequently end up with a 50/50 mix, sometimes even heavier on melee ships. In naval battles I end up cycling my melee ships, retreating some back to heal while healthy ships rush to front to protect my ranged ships. Since the ranged should take less hits I don't need as many to maintain a good mix of healthy ships. The extra movement of melee ships are great to track down enemies that try to retreat to heal; having a few extra on hand allows me to do so while still protecting my ranged ships.

If my opponents don't have formidable navies then I can go with a heavier ratio of ranged ships.

 

[ashendashin]

Interesting to see how others play. I frequently end up with a 50/50 mix, sometimes even heavier on melee ships. In naval battles I end up cycling my melee ships, retreating some back to heal while healthy ships rush to front to protect my ranged ships. Since the ranged should take less hits I don't need as many to maintain a good mix of healthy ships. The extra movement of melee ships are great to track down enemies that try to retreat to heal; having a few extra on hand allows me to do so while still protecting my ranged ships.

If my opponents don't have formidable navies then I can go with a heavier ratio of ranged ships.

More melee can work for pure naval battles sure, but I think ranged is overall superior because of them taking the least damage in city defense and their ability to open up any coast you could ever want. Melee is search and destroy at sea. That's about it unless you have some unique. Keep your ships pounding stuff throughout the game and you'll have promotions like supply, logistics, and indirect fire for naval superiority on any side of the world (some city-state allies to keep the melees and select ranged units alive does wonders). Stick some tanks with blitz under 'em and you'll get through a late game invasion in no time at all.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

I checked 'Avoid growth' on my 1 pop city, then I got event and chose 'lose 1 pop'. I made 0 pop city. Is it intended?

 

[peterw1987]

I never see lose 1pop event.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

I never see lose 1pop event.

Oh, I'm not sure but if you don't, it must be Hokath and Enginseer's Community Events mod one. I'm sorry for posting on wrong place.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Is it just me or did war weariness suddenly got way harsher in this patch? Swiftly got -7 happiness in classical IIRC after I took a city, Hiawatha reclaimed it (Mohawks are a much better UU than Legions) and then I took it back, and then after peace when I caused another war with him around medieval, got -14 after 1 or 2 city captures. Sure, it took me a few turns to break his endless Mohawk spam, but it wasn't that long. The war weariness also doesn't disappear immediately after peace but only gets halved, however in this case maybe it was the same before but I simply didn't notice it. It's not gamebreaking harsh, but it definitely is not as benevolent as it was a version or two ago and I'm sure domination victory got way harder. Well that or I just had better luck with how the WW procs then.

Balace-wise, I yet again suggest reducing Gold cost of Wells to 1. They're not affordable at 2 until cities are really grown (excluding really gold-heavy starts which typically include plantations like Tobacco), and by that point you probably can build Water Mills too, meaning they have no upside at all. I could see myself restarting capital starts without rivers as it currently is.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

Yeah, well doesn't deserve that expensive maintenance.

 

[Enginseer]

Oh, I'm not sure but if you don't, it must be Hokath and Enginseer's Community Events mod one. I'm sorry for posting on wrong place.

Hmm.. I'll set up a city population threshold of 2 then.

 

[BazaarJack]

Finished Morocco diplo victory, and perhaps I was a bit lucky, but this version seemed the best iteration so far. Great job!

Notable:
- Carthage runaway that was slowly consuming its neighbors and making intelligent defensive pacts. AI split its resources between science and conquest and nearly pulled off both - some spaceship parts were complete (only 2 other civs still had capital), also nuked my defensive pact partner into oblivion, before I could get non-proliferation treaty up (which they voted for!)
- Several viable religions duking it out for CS influence. Although, I'm surprised - I've been in a couple games with Celts that have the strongest religion, but they don't seem to pressure other civs with missionaries
- Zulu neighbor with an Elephant start - this was terrifying and I thought the game was hopeless turn ~175 when I was invaded. I was saved by a Castle going up just as every workable tile was pillaged, and city garrison was half dead. 6 elephants/7 longswordsman/1 crossbow/ 2 archer. Great General positioning is still pretty poor by the AI, this probably contributed to surviving.
- Going tall (6 cities) was pretty tough on Emporer. I couldn't get a modest navy started, so I gave up on it as I was constantly being declared on by the Huns/Denmark. I had to rely on my CS allies as a buffer, and would do a lot of fighting there.

Quesions:
- It's not clear to me how a massive civ with 3-4x cities with no civ-specific culture benefits is keeping up in Social Policy acquisition with a civ like Morocco. We had equal number of wonders, and I had my trade routes fully maximized, and also built kasbahs in every available tile. I also built Oracle, but Carthage still managed to be in front on Social Policies until right around ideologies were selected. I'm glad I didn't attempt Culture victory, because it would not have worked. Any thoughts?

 

[tu_79]

Finished Morocco diplo victory, and perhaps I was a bit lucky, but this version seemed the best iteration so far. Great job!

Notable:
- Carthage runaway that was slowly consuming its neighbors and making intelligent defensive pacts. AI split its resources between science and conquest and nearly pulled off both - some spaceship parts were complete (only 2 other civs still had capital), also nuked my defensive pact partner into oblivion, before I could get non-proliferation treaty up (which they voted for!)
- Several viable religions duking it out for CS influence. Although, I'm surprised - I've been in a couple games with Celts that have the strongest religion, but they don't seem to pressure other civs with missionaries
- Zulu neighbor with an Elephant start - this was terrifying and I thought the game was hopeless turn ~175 when I was invaded. I was saved by a Castle going up just as every workable tile was pillaged, and city garrison was half dead. 6 elephants/7 longswordsman/1 crossbow/ 2 archer. Great General positioning is still pretty poor by the AI, this probably contributed to surviving.
- Going tall (6 cities) was pretty tough on Emporer. I couldn't get a modest navy started, so I gave up on it as I was constantly being declared on by the Huns/Denmark. I had to rely on my CS allies as a buffer, and would do a lot of fighting there.

Quesions:
- It's not clear to me how a massive civ with 3-4x cities with no civ-specific culture benefits is keeping up in Social Policy acquisition with a civ like Morocco. We had equal number of wonders, and I had my trade routes fully maximized, and also built kasbahs in every available tile. I also built Oracle, but Carthage still managed to be in front on Social Policies until right around ideologies were selected. I'm glad I didn't attempt Culture victory, because it would not have worked. Any thoughts?

Puppets do not increase policy costs, I think, and they can produce some culture. Also, a large civ can have access to more monopolies, for extra culture.

 

[ElliotS]

Quesions:
- It's not clear to me how a massive civ with 3-4x cities with no civ-specific culture benefits is keeping up in Social Policy acquisition with a civ like Morocco. We had equal number of wonders, and I had my trade routes fully maximized, and also built kasbahs in every available tile. I also built Oracle, but Carthage still managed to be in front on Social Policies until right around ideologies were selected. I'm glad I didn't attempt Culture victory, because it would not have worked. Any thoughts?

Note that the culture cost increase is additive and not multiplicative, so every city taken only needs to produce 11% of the base culture cost and base science cost to break even. You'll never really hit a point where taking medium to large cities will hurt your culture or science output.

For example taking a 21st city takes your science/culture costs from 220% to 231%, a 4.7% increase in total costs. a 51st city goes from 550% to 561%, which is a total increase of only 1.96%.

Also obviously puppets don't increase science or culture costs, so if she was puppeting a lot of her conquests it would contribute more heavily. Puppets are a good way to increase your science and culture as a 'Tall' civ, as are vassals.

You should consider taking some puppets and vassals, both to fend off aggressors and boost your outputs.

The only VC that really benefits from avoiding taking any cities at all remaining small is culture, and even then razing a few cities and getting a vassal or two in medieval era can be a huge help later. If someone is going to settle your surrounding lands it might as well be the guy giving you 0-25% of his money, 20% of his science/faith/culture, and who acts as a meat-shield, right?