New Version - November 26th (11/26)

[Gazebo]

Hey all,

New version inbound. Lots of good behind-the-scenes changes here, and a few balance passes here and there.

General

• Bugfixes for lots of random things from github
• Improvements to AI WC selection in many situations
• Improvements to AI target selection for city-state diplo missions
• Tactical bugfixes and improvements
• Substantial improvements to AI policy, ideology, building, and belief selection
• Worked on MP a bit, but still buggy and prone to desyncs - just nothing I can do, folks, as I don't have access to netcode backend.

Balance
General

• You can gain a max of 45 XP from fighting minor civ units (this can be changed/disabled in the core changes CBO sql file - it is simply a define).
• Civilian units captured from other civilizations have their work rate halved, permanently (they are enslaved/indentured/forced labor, anyways) via the Prisoners of War promotion.
• Adjusted world size science/culture penalties per city to 10 for duel-small, 7 for standard, 5 for large/huge
• Deity AIs now start with Pottery (Quantity of AI units at start without Pottery was harming their early production quite a bit, actually)

Spies

• The influence gained from rigging elections in CSs now scales with era.

World Congress

• Scholars in Residence now 2% per CS (was 5%) (CSD)

Buildings

• CSD buildings - paper now only found on CSD national wonders

Resources

• Paper can no longer be traded (CSD)

Units

• Diplomatic unit paper costs adjusted (CSD)
  • Reduced paper value on emissary/envoy to 1, and diplomat/ambassador to 2
• Great Diplomats- when expended, gain +1 paper permanently (CSD)
• Increased diplo unit production costs (much more for later units compared to earlier ones) (CSD)
• Flipped pillage and spotting promotion prereqs for scout line units
• XP from ranged-attacking cities now 2XP (Was 3XP)

Policies

• Fealty
  • Divine Right - Reduced culture from happiness to 50% (Was 100%)
• Statecraft
  • Opener - moved CS reward bonus to Foreign Service; opener now 1 of all yields in Capital for every 25 citizens in your empire
    • Statecraft needs an immediate steroid, but I didn't want to step on the toes of the other openers. This opener benefits the capital more for a wide empire, helping statecraft work better for wider empires.
  • Foreign Service - +50% reward bonus moved here. Also changed +2 paper to be +1 of ALL strategic resources for every 3 CS Alliances (CSD)
    • Small empires with lots of CS allies will now have plenty of strategic resources to play with, and the potential for monopolies goes up as well.
  • Exchange Markets - gains Tourism from trade Routes bonus that was on Foreign Service (CSD)
• Rationalism
  • Empiricism - Reduced Science Per X City Modifier to 2% (was 3%)
  • Free Thought - Science now +2 on Villages (was +3)

Religion

• Way of the Pilgrim - now 15 t/c base, but scales based on the number of other religious followers in the city, not friendly followers
• Apostolic Tradition - now 25f/gap base, but scales based on the number of followers converted

Online as of 11:55pm EST. Not savegame compatible with saves from previous versions.

Link: https://mega.nz/#F!DMsxkDYI!zSpR9CHpmAfWyIvMXaN3pw

Cheers,
Gazebo

 

[Stalker0]

So it looks like you are trying out the big CSD changes. Really can't comment on them right now but to say its a pretty strong change and it looks very interesting. Eager to see the results in play.

 

[Asterix Rage]

• You can gain a max of 45 XP from fighting minor civ units (this can be changed/disabled in the core changes CBO sql file - it is simply a define).
• Civilian units captured from other civilizations have their work rate halved, permanently (they are enslaved/indentured/forced labor, anyways) via the Prisoners of War promotion.

45 XP max wasn't already in place? Minor civ is CS right? I'm confused there.
"They are enslaved". Now "Abolition of slavery" is needed later in game. Wonder, policy or whatever can do that as it was in previous version of Civ

 

[phantomaxl1207]

So Barbs can bully CSs and make their Workers worse when you return them?

Statecraft opener seems like it would benefit from both the new opener and the old one.

I guess I won't find till later today when I play.

 

[IcyAngel]

You post this now, noooooo!

Thanks for the work.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Looks great!

 

[vuko]

Looks great. Is the church change from 50% to 25% in this patch?

 

[tu_79]

Thanks again.

Substantial improvements to AI policy, ideology, building, and belief selection

I'm eager to see them at work.

Civilian units captured from other civilizations have their work rate halved, permanently (they are enslaved/indentured/forced labor, anyways) via the Prisoners of War promotion

Now Pyramids are soo thematic.

Adjusted world size science/culture penalties per city to 10 for duel-small, 7 for standard, 5 for large/huge

We still would like it to be the same penalty in every map size, except for large-huge.

CSD buildings - paper now only found on CSD national wonders
Paper can no longer be traded (CSD)
Diplomatic unit paper costs adjusted (CSD)
Great Diplomats- when expended, gain +1 paper permanently (CSD)

Oh!? So you mixed Deadstarre and I suggestions and it is working fine with AI? Now I want to try a new game. Again... Dammit. Not convinced on the Great Diplomat effect, though, but worth testing it.

Flipped pillage and spotting promotion prereqs for scout line units

Prereqs? I don't get it. Are xp promotions free, included in other promotions, or they still need one exclusive promotion to get them? If it is the latter, then it won't be very useful.

Lots of good behind-the-scenes changes here

Don't be so humble, there are many in-the-scenes changes, too.

 

[Deadstarre]

Now Pyramids are soo thematic.

I lol'd

 

[bigcat88]

No changes to fealty?(armories castle swap with organized religion(-50% to cost)?)

 

[Legen]

• Civilian units captured from other civilizations have their work rate halved, permanently (they are enslaved/indentured/forced labor, anyways) via the Prisoners of War promotion.

Sounds like an elegant solution.

So, they keep this promotion even if they are returned to its original owner? Also, does this promotion apply if the worker is captured by a barbarian and then captured by someone else?

 

[Deadstarre]

So, they keep this promotion even if they are returned to its original owner?

probably, a penalty for losing your worker in the first place? kind of like how if you lose a settler, then another civ captures it so it turns to a worker, but then you immediately capture it back, it still remains a worker and doesnt turn back to your settler.

 

[CrazyG]

All Deity AI begin with Pottery, this will be intersting. I had wondered about this, it seemed like Emperor difficulty AI actually had more gold early because the Deity AI just pumped out warriors which consumes resources to not much benefit. It also made authority with a UU or horsemen rushes really appealing because there was always a ton of junk to kill. Seems like stonehenge or settlers will come out a lot earlier, which will make the game harder

 

[Gokudo01]

damn this change anti-workerstealer I'm really sad

 

[PapaRockett]

All Deity AI begin with Pottery, this will be intersting. I had wondered about this, it seemed like Emperor difficulty AI actually had more gold early because the Deity AI just pumped out warriors which consumes resources to not much benefit. It also made authority with a UU or horsemen rushes really appealing because there was always a ton of junk to kill. Seems like stonehenge or settlers will come out a lot earlier, which will make the game harder

Knowing how much the AI loves to city spam regardless of their policy choice, I do wonder how early they'll be building settlers. Doing so with 2 or 3 pop would obviously do more harm than good.

 

[ashendashin]

All Deity AI begin with Pottery, this will be intersting. I had wondered about this, it seemed like Emperor difficulty AI actually had more gold early because the Deity AI just pumped out warriors which consumes resources to not much benefit. It also made authority with a UU or horsemen rushes really appealing because there was always a ton of junk to kill. Seems like stonehenge or settlers will come out a lot earlier, which will make the game harder

A bit too hard, don't you think? I doubt I'll ever try a peaceful start like this, with so many settling spots lost straight off the bat. Only viable option would be immediately catching up on the AIs numbers. This change seems a bit forced, in my opinion.

 

[CrazyG]

A bit too hard, don't you think? I doubt I'll ever try a peaceful start like this, with so many settling spots lost straight off the bat. Only viable option would be immediately catching up on the AIs numbers. This change seems a bit forced, in my opinion.

Its something we will have to play to see. Also Stonehenge is basically dead too, it has no policy requirement so AI can start it on turn 1. On the other hand, maybe all the AI will try to build it, giving 6 of them a terrible start

 

[Deadstarre]

Quantity of AI units at start without Pottery was harming their early production quite a bit, actually

i'm still trying to wrap my head around this cause its not making sense to me yet, so what exactly was the problem? they were going over their supply limit because all they could do was pump out warriors? are they aware they could be using the process Farming until they have useful things to produce instead of hurting themselves? I just don't see how them starting with an obvious advantage suddenly becomes a problem where now they need to be given even more advantages.

 

[Gazebo]

i'm still trying to wrap my head around this cause its not making sense to me yet, so what exactly was the problem? they were going over their supply limit because all they could do was pump out warriors? are they aware they could be using the process Farming until they have useful things to produce instead of hurting themselves? I just don't see how them starting with an obvious advantage suddenly becomes a problem where now they need to be given even more advantages.

Turn 0 farming is essentially 'marking time.' The AI does it, but it is a waste on Deity, as their handicap bonuses more than make up for it. That's my point: the first 10 turns or so (i.e. until the AI gets pottery) were essentially 'catch up time' for humans, as a lot of the initial unit needs are already met for them. I want Deity to hit the ground running, and this is the best way to do that.

So Barbs can bully CSs and make their Workers worse when you return them?

Statecraft opener seems like it would benefit from both the new opener and the old one.

I guess I won't find till later today when I play.

Well the opener scales, so it is its own scaler (in a way). Statecraft feels really good right now, I'm reluctant to buff it any further.

Looks great. Is the church change from 50% to 25% in this patch?

Yes, I just left it off. Technically 30%.

Thanks again.


I'm eager to see them at work.

Now Pyramids are soo thematic.

We still would like it to be the same penalty in every map size, except for large-huge.

Oh!? So you mixed Deadstarre and I suggestions and it is working fine with AI? Now I want to try a new game. Again... Dammit. Not convinced on the Great Diplomat effect, though, but worth testing it.
Prereqs? I don't get it. Are xp promotions free, included in other promotions, or they still need one exclusive promotion to get them? If it is the latter, then it won't be very useful.

Don't be so humble, there are many in-the-scenes changes, too.

Duel/Tiny was acting odd at the 'unified penalty. Thus my solution. You can still like for it to be whatever you want though (won't make me change it!).

Prereqs - the tree the promotion is part of.

Sounds like an elegant solution.

So, they keep this promotion even if they are returned to its original owner? Also, does this promotion apply if the worker is captured by a barbarian and then captured by someone else?

The promotion is applied during the 'captured unit' phase and only if the owner isn't the original owner, so no, liberated units come home happy to work 100%, sir.
The promotion can only apply once, to note, so no 100% work reduction losers.

G

 

[nj666]

• Civilian units captured from other civilizations have their work rate halved, permanently (they are enslaved/indentured/forced labor, anyways) via the Prisoners of War promotion.

Very questionable. At least make them maintenance-free, then. Also it's not realistic - in real world slaves can work at double or triple efficiency because they are forced to work, while normal employees have their human rights protected.
Also it will make players need to actually build workers instead of stealing from AI, which will slow them down, which is a problem on higher difficulties ( when AI is already quite ahead in everything ). Building early worker = slower policies, less faith and likely to never make it to found religion.