New Version - November 26th (11/26)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Nov 26, 2017.

  1. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I agree. I usually refrain myself for such fine adjustments. I prefer theory crafting and general design. Storming ideas without thinking them very thoroughly, so I'm not very attached to those ideas when they are rejected ;)

    But you know? I truly believe that the game needs to be enjoyable from difficulty Settler onwards. I think G tries to. And that means adapting the game to the difficulty that players feel confident to play. For example, noobs may not know the game very well, and probably won't plan for wonders, missing some serious synergies that ends up changing the balance for those games, like not beelining diplomacy buildings. If most players playing Settler difficulty find too difficult to win by diplomacy (not saying this is currently the case), then the game is unbalanced for them, the ones playing in that difficulty. This is why you need to listen to every player, this is why players need to state their settings when giving feedback.

    Have DOTA or StarCraft difficulty levels? Different paces? Different settling areas? It's easier to balance a game for only one kind of player.
     
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  2. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    While Fealty now can be used for TV and Artistry can be used for SV (very rarely), Statecraft can't be ignored if you want to get DV. Actually as long as it gives more votes and Big Ben - it is and it will always be. Oh wait, you can get DV with Tradition+Progress+Authority on Emperor, so it is actually not!

    Yes they do, but it is not played on competitive level.
    No. This means that they should come to this forum and ask "How am i supposed to play DV right? What am i doing wrong?" And i will be glad to explain!
     
  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Sorry, but building VP around non-Deity players grovelling before Deity players is not exactly a winning formula.

    Civ is not DOTA. It isn't SC either. It's not really a 'competitive' game in that sense as there so many more variables. Plus, donut isn't the mandatory map choice (I'm feeling deja vu here...).

    G
     
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  4. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    Thanks for the reply, Gazebo. I appreciate all the effort you've been putting into VP. It's great that you've delved into CSD code despite it being a lot of work, thnaks!

    As for the opener, I'll admit I haven't tried it, but rather based my comments on general experience of how many population I'll usually have on Immortal/Deity Medieval era onwards. But you're right, it has to be tried out before further fiddling.

    What about my comments on Deity starting with The wheel instead of Pottery to prevent land-grabbing from turn 1?
     
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  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Perhaps, however if Deity players truly find a free tech nauseating I'm just going to remove it - I'd rather my players be happy (for the most part! :) ) than anything else. :D

    G
     
  6. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    Thanks for the quick reply.

    I myself am not against a free tech, I just think The Wheel is a much better option for the AI to start with than Pottery.

    In your Deity testing with Pottery, was there any difference in average time it took the AI to settle 2nd, 3rd and 4th city compared to the non-free-Pottery versions?
     
  7. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    I agree with @LukaSlovenia29 that if you have to give Deity AI a tech so that they have something to do with their build order, then The Wheel is better. Letting the AI get a Council up slightly earlier is better than letting them spam Settlers earlier, which feels very unfair for the player.

    If you do consider that, I'd swap the Pyramid and Mausoleum in the tech tree, though. AI starting with Wheel means they'll reach Calendar waaay before the player, and there's a general consensus Pyramid is good and the players ought to have a reasonable chance. Missing Mausoleum is less tragic.
     
  8. Haile Marriam

    Haile Marriam Chieftain

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    Haha! Me too! I only recently graduated to King. Will give this a shot and provide some feedback (takes a long time though since I play Marathon games). Thank you for continuing your work on this and considering ALL feedback from the community.
     
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  9. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Wow wow wow, come on now people, this thread is going to attract the DTSC that's how toxic it is getting.
     
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  10. IcyAngel

    IcyAngel Prince

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    Doesn't seem to make a diffence in the three early games I've played yet; Stonehenge does go earlier (between 25-30 instead of 35-40, on Epic) but AI settling has remained mostly similar. They grow their capital a bit before settling, so they have to to research Pottery anyway.
     
  11. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    That's Epic, though. The timings are different for Standard.
     
  12. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    I really do not see any toxicity here and i'm not groveling at all. It looks like people do think that i'm being egoistic and i'm trying to solve my own Deity problems. If that's the case - that means that i'm awful at explaining things. Obviously, i am concerned about Deity state of the game because i do play it, but i am absolutely confident that what i'm telling will result in better state of the game.

    So i'll give it a try one last time.

    FIrst of all i'll change my phrasing a bit. Every feedback should be taken into accounts, but the game should have as many viable strategies as possible on Deity. This is because all Deity strategies are viable on other difficulties too, and the opposite is not true. (Yes in fact it means exactly the same thing as before, but sounds a bit more democratic).

    And since i'm awful at explaining things - i made a picture:

    THE VOX POPULI DIFFICULTY DECISION MAKING TREE
    upload_2017-11-28_23-21-23.png

    Now please tell me what am i missing? Where is the mistake in this fabulous picture? I really do not understand
     
  13. pandasnail

    pandasnail Prince

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    So yeah, I really do not like the slave workers. It leads to either having to remember which ones are useless and can only be trusted with the most ancillary tasks or just killing them and building new workers in core cities to fix up conquests. Neither of which is fun or interesting. And the whole thing only exists I guess to fight an early game tactic I don't do anyway.

    Won't be today I don't think, but soon I'm gonna try it at 85 percent, see how that goes, enough to add a turn or two to epic improvements, but much less punishing.
     
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  14. IcyAngel

    IcyAngel Prince

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    Sure? But if the settling timings haven't changed on Epic, why would they have changed on Standard?
     
  15. Blue Ghost

    Blue Ghost King

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    Thanks for the picture. I have a better sense of where you’re coming from, and I respect the thought you’ve put into your argument.
    Where I take issue is the “try another strategy” step. I play on Emperor, and I have no desire at the moment to move up. At the same time, I also aim to play my best game. So if I find a strategy that works better than any other, I would not want to handicap myself with an inferior strategy just for the sake of diversity. Fortunately this isn’t the case, but if there were a strategy that feels overpowered and unfair on the difficulty I prefer, that would be a major weakness in the game.
    EDIT: Also, difficulty level isn’t the only consideration. Some people have preferred play styles as well. If theoretically speaking, tall and wide were balanced on Deity, but on Immortal wide was vastly superior, then Immortal players would have fewer options in their playstyle.
     
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  16. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Well this is exactly the part that i do not understand. Is this like "(1) I know one strategy that works better than any other, (2) i know i can have 100% winrate with it, (3) i don't want to try other strategies because they are worse and (4) still i don't want to increase the difficulty" ?
    I mean, seriously, what happens if i tell you a strategy like this for Emperor right now? It exists and i know it...
     
  17. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    It happens that you are removing the fun for the player.
     
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  18. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    do not question the fabulous VOX POPULI DIFFICULTY DECISION MAKING TREE! we will decorate it with tinsel and ornament and cherish it until mid-february.
     
  19. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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    +1

    If the slave worker brings something great to the gameplay and if AI knows to deal with it, 2 things are needed.
    1- A dedicated model for the slaves.
    2- Several ways to free slaves. I mean Wonder, policy and WC resolution.

    An other way to rethink the process is to consider slaves are more efficient (low cost workforce). So 50% faster but brings unhappiness from Indus. Era.
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Uhh technically they’re PoWs. ;)

    One possibility I considered was having the promotion expire after 50 turns. That or making an actual new unit that you can ‘upgrade’ into a worker with gold. Former much easier.

    G
     

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