New Version - November 26th (11/26)

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Well this is exactly the part that i do not understand. Is this like "(1) I know one strategy that works better than any other, (2) i know i can have 100% winrate with it, (3) i don't want to try other strategies because they are worse and (4) still i don't want to increase the difficulty" ?
I mean, seriously, what happens if i tell you a strategy like this for Emperor right now? It exists and i know it...
Yes, that is exactly what I mean. What doesn’t make sense about this?
If there is actually a single strategy on Emperor that’s significantly easier to win with than anything else, well, that is a problem. Would you mind sharing it with the class so we can fix it?
 
One possibility I considered was having the promotion expire after 50 turns.
Wow you just reminded me that existed years ago. I'll be tinkering with that for some fun time.
 
Yes, that is exactly what I mean. What doesn’t make sense about this?
If there is actually a single strategy on Emperor that’s significantly easier to win with than anything else, well, that is a problem. Would you mind sharing it with the class so we can fix it?
Not one, i have lots and lots of them. No, none of them is stronger than the others

EDIT: What does not make sense to me personally is that you can test it on higher difficulty, but you don't. This is like boxing with a child, you always win, but you refuse to go to the ring.

On the other hand i never understood players who play "fun" strategies like "this game i build my cities in the form of Jewish star and then i will capture the world with tanks vs archers, cause i cosplay masonry". But thing is that those players do not care about balance
 
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Not one, i have lots and lots of them. No, none of them is stronger than the others

What does not make sense to me personally is that you can test it on higher difficulty, but you don't. This is like boxing with a child, you always win, but you refuse to go to the ring.
Not everyone likes the same experiences or wants the same things out of the game. Not everyone wants maximum challenge or enjoys playing against the cheatiest AI possible. And people enjoy different subjective difficulties. What’s too easy for you can be just right for someone else, even if they are just as skilled (not saying that I am). I play Emperor because I feel like that puts me on equal footing with the AI. Could I win on Immortal? Maybe, but I wouldn’t enjoy it as much. That’s why I want the game to be the best it can be on the difficulty I prefer, and not have to move up to get the most of my Civ experience. And I want that for everyone, whatever their preferred difficulty is.
 
Not everyone likes the same experiences or wants the same things out of the game. Not everyone wants maximum challenge or enjoys playing against the cheatiest AI possible. And people enjoy different subjective difficulties. What’s too easy for you can be just right for someone else, even if they are just as skilled (not saying that I am). I play Emperor because I feel like that puts me on equal footing with the AI. Could I win on Immortal? Maybe, but I wouldn’t enjoy it as much. That’s why I want the game to be the best it can be on the difficulty I prefer, and not have to move up to get the most of my Civ experience. And I want that for everyone, whatever their preferred difficulty is.
Actually i just understood it. This "magic" strategy that we were talking about does not exists. CIv is not that much about strategy, it is about execution. So what i am proposing (maximize the amount of viable strategies on Deity) will not break the game on any difficulty, because the difference between Deity player and Emperor player is not that Deity players know secret strategies. It is about carefull execution, about paying attention to small details, that does not seem important for Emperor player. This was why we were arguing.

None of the changes that can fix Deity games can break other difficulties. In fact you won't even notice most of the changes in Emperor games! Why? Because Deity is about taking small details into accounts, those small details that you don't pay attention too

EDIT: I understood this when thinking of what strategy to give you as an example. I can't give an example to you. What i can do is take a look at your game and tell you "this building is a mistake, this tech is a mistake and this city is settled in a bad place".

And yes, i have dozens of examples of things that are broken on Deity, but i haven't heard about any strategy that is broken on Emperor (because it does not exist and will never be)
 
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New patch notes look good and/or interesting; excited to see how it plays. The free Pottery tech on Deity is a bit clunky but figured that's a quick fix to patch a problem and feedback (informed, constructive) would help guide a more elegant long term fix in a future patch.

A couple things on the current debate I would emphasize:

If I understand correctly, the captured worker change is largely due to the AI not being able to use the strategy the same way a player can (i.e. stealing a CS worker or declaring war specifically to steal a civilian unit). The change is therefore not removing a clever strategy option from the player's hand but a clever exploit.

Based on observation that seems to be one of G's design philosophies: if the AI can't do it then it's not a clever strategy but an exploit and will be removed if possible, minimized if not. If you depended on that exploit to stay competitive, well, time to find a new strategy or drop down a level to retrain.

Also, 1/2 a worker is still valuable; if you believe 2:c5gold:=1:c5production: then that captured worker is worth about 39 3/4:c5production: (1). That's still valuable in the early game, on par with a production ruin; it's just 1/2 as valuable as it used to be for you (still just as detrimental to the AI), and that may be enough to turn it from the no brainer it used to be for min-maxing your play. If 1/2 speed workers are not worth the trouble you've already got two decent options: let a barbarian capture them then repatriate them to the original owner for influence (exploitation lives on!) or delete them for a bit of gold. Either of G's suggestions are solid as well.

Regarding the Deity Design Decisions Deference Dust-up (or "D to the 5th" as none of the cool kids are calling it) I'll only add that there's a difference between knowing how to best play the game by the rules as they are and understanding how changes will effect future game play. Deity players have a strong grasp of the game mechanics and can provide valuable input on current game play but those abilities are not exclusive to Deity players. Neither is the ability to anticipate how changes to the game will play out.

I like the current system: the ones who appear to be heeded the most are the ones that routinely provide sensible, well-reasoned solutions. There's no shortage of that on these forums but if anyone needs a role model it's hard to beat CrazyG right now(2).

Footnotes:

(1): Captured Worker cost equation: A regular Worker is 80:c5production:; so a half speed captured worker would be worth 40:c5production:. But that worker costs the same 1:c5gold: maintenance; therefore he represents a 1/2:c5gold: loss which correlates to 1/4:c5production: loss. But how do you factor in that maintenance is a per turn cost? That's your homework for tonight.

(2): But isn't CrazyG a Deity player himself, thus invalidating my entire premise? No. CrazyG has solid suggestions AND is a Deity player, not BECAUSE he's a Deity player.
 
None of the changes that can fix Deity games can break other difficulties. In fact you won't even notice most of the changes in Emperor games! Why? Because Deity is about taking small details into accounts, those small details that you don't pay attention too

I have a huge issue with pantheons in Deity, because most of them have a faith generation that is either too low or comes too late to allow founding a religion. If we were to balance pantheons around Deity, they would be hugely different! Yet the ones we have now work just fine for lower difficulties.

That's just one example.
 
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Uhh technically they’re PoWs. ;)

One possibility I considered was having the promotion expire after 50 turns. That or making an actual new unit that you can ‘upgrade’ into a worker with gold. Former much easier.

G

I would try both these, but especially the turns one, I don't know.
 
No. This means that they should come to this forum and ask "How am i supposed to play DV right? What am i doing wrong?" And i will be glad to explain!

No.
Settler difficulty should be a difficulty where someone who don't wont to think too much, don't know the game, or is just bad at strategy games should enjoy a balanced game.
Difficulty are not just a ramp to Deity, and the game should remain balanced even if the player does not have the time/will/capacity to progress and improve itself.
If I give to a complete beginner VP, and during the first few games he does, the game is unbalanced since a victory is easier to master than another, or some choices are "no-brainer" since all the other choices require to be able to play correctly to be interesting, then the game is not currently balanced.
I frequently (once a month) see report (on Reddit) from beginner complaining that settler is too hard and ill-balanced, and it is true, settler is not currently well balanced, but is probably the difficulty the most difficult to balance since players playing at this difficulty are not able to make constructive reports.

Please don't forget that a lot of people interested in VP are interested in playing VS the most competitive AI without buff (they want a "fair" game), so Prince difficulty. In Prince difficulty, if you play badly (same skill level as the AI), you win 1/8 of the time (by symmetry). If VP was perfect, the game should be also interesting at this skill level.

However, I have to agree with you on some points. The current Deity level is far from perfect, and if pantheon are mostly balanced for AIs, there are not for Deity players.
 
After thinking all day I've got a few ideas for Deity's issues:
  1. The AI techs up VERY quickly at first. I've never had a game where I lead the AI all game. In 99% of my games the leader is 5-10 techs ahead of me in classic-medevial, and the game closes hard later.
    • In my Denmark game you can see an image of Assyria attacking my spearmen and archers with longswordsmen. I ended up winning. I wasn't playing poorly. It's just pretty insane most games.
    • However I never seem to be behind in tech going into modern era. It seems 100% of the time I make it there I'm in the lead or neck and neck.
    • I think the AI's science cost reduction should start lower and increase by era. (Slower to level up until Renaissance or Industrial where it balances out and then progressively cheaper.)
  2. If the AI needs more things to build could you just enable them to build some early buildings without actually giving them a tech? Like AI can build Council and focus science/gold in ancient but not actually get the techs?
    • This would obviously help prevent the impossible wonders to grab, while fixing the 'problem'.
    • I'm not actually sure having too much bonus production is a problem that needs to be solved, but this is the best solution imo.
  3. Tribute seems too hard. I'll just make a thread on it.
As for the Deity vs other difficulties thing:
It's impossible to balance around other difficulties because players are a mixed bag of skills. You can easily win King with Deity level Warfare even if you have chieften level everything else. The same goes for every other main aspect of the game. The fact is that I've seen a million players claim things are impossible on the next difficulty up because they had one strong area and needed to shore up their weaknesses.

The amount of people that claimed stonehenge was impossible on Emperor when it was consistently possible on Deity flat out proves how hard it is to take anything said by lower skilled players seriously. (These are king players moving to Emperor and making a bunch of small mistakes.)

The main difference about Deity players is that we pay attention and assess basically every aspect of the game. Lower skilled players sometimes don't know it, but they make hundreds or thousands of mistakes in as many turns. Those mistakes add up, and rather than blame themselves they blame the game a lot of the time.


finally, someone mentioned it. have thought already they forgot this fact. destroy their world by giving +1 yield to the bad place. thats your fault Gazebo, you have made such a great mod, that is hard to give up at all.

Why do people assume anyone disagreeing with them on the internet has spittle flying out of their mouth while they rage in their undies and knock over the bowl of chef-boy-r-d their mom brought down the basement?

I don't think anyone has lost a sense of scale. We all love the game. We all think the patch is much better than vanilla. (even if all of my initial concerns turn out to be true, it would still be heads and tails better than vanilla.)

I'm not sure if people like you are dumb or intentionally misrepresenting the people they disagree with, but regardless I'd rather keep from straw-manning people or their arguments.
 
Why do people assume anyone disagreeing with them on the internet has spittle flying out of their mouth while they rage in their undies and knock over the bowl of chef-boy-r-d their mom brought down the basement?

I don't think anyone has lost a sense of scale. We all love the game. We all think the patch is much better than vanilla. (even if all of my initial concerns turn out to be true, it would still be heads and tails better than vanilla.)

I'm not sure if people like you are dumb or intentionally misrepresenting the people they disagree with, but regardless I'd rather keep from straw-manning people or their arguments.

Yes, a short dumb-ish joke on yours( and similars) side. The rest i absolutely don't know , what you are talking about. I don't care you dissagreeing with G and i actually agreed to your point of balancing privilege. However, i little don't understand Owlbebachs classing of ,, tunning'' VP mod. Like, design balance, where G and others representatives of VP already claimed, that VP is nearly finished mechanic wise and is up to just about balancing.With this on my mind and also on your mind if you are not hypocrite, it sounds like rest of you sht up, we are the only ones who can talk to this. Because honestly, aside from few mechanics, rest of it lies on numbers and numbers again.

I will ignore a note on my behalf being dumb, with absolute no knowledge of my person. It's just your fault and yout tunnel-shaped view on a game, a place where you used to feel like king that you actually can not surpass harmless notice. This is my last comment on this theme, i am not confident in wasting my time in disscusion like this.
 
The main difference about Deity players is that we pay attention and assess basically every aspect of the game. Lower skilled players sometimes don't know it, but they make hundreds or thousands of mistakes in as many turns. Those mistakes add up, and rather than blame themselves they blame the game a lot of the time.

I'm not sure if people like you are dumb or intentionally misrepresenting the people they disagree with, but regardless I'd rather keep from straw-manning people or their arguments.

I feel that you are misrepresenting those who play on lower difficulties. Specifically, the part where pre-Deity players do not pay attention and assess basically every aspect of the game. Pre-Deity players may or may not see the same things that you believe Deity players see, but I don't know how you can say that pre-Deity players pay less attention than Deity players do or blame the game rather than themselves more often than Deity players do.

The acid in this thread is just amazing (in the unfortunate way). I am a pre-Deity player. Why would I *ever* come to any of the "opinions of pre-Deity players should be ignored" people for advice when I know (now) the context that they see me in? Damn, really?

So, yeah, can we do this instead?
The toxicity in this thread is absurd. Really, truly, guys. It’s a game. Test, offer feedback, and then we’ll go from there.
 
I feel that you are misrepresenting those who play on lower difficulties. Specifically, the part where pre-Deity players do not pay attention and assess basically every aspect of the game. Pre-Deity players may or may not see the same things that you believe Deity players see, but I don't know how you can say that pre-Deity players pay less attention than Deity players do or blame the game rather than themselves more often than Deity players do.

The acid in this thread is just amazing (in the unfortunate way). I am a pre-Deity player. Why would I *ever* come to any of the "opinions of pre-Deity players should be ignored" people for advice when I know (now) the context that they see me in? Damn, really?

So, yeah, can we do this instead?
Well, Owl's a Russki. They do have quite the culture around competitive gaming. Elliot's hours in DOTA are...yeah I think he's exposed himself to moba gaming for far, far too long.

Plz be considerate of their salt intake. They're the product of some of the most cancerous gaming scenes around. Damn, even I'm getting toxic now.
 
Well, Owl's a Russki. They do have quite the culture around competitive gaming. Elliot's hours in DOTA are...yeah I think he's exposed himself to moba gaming for far, far too long.

Plz be considerate of their salt intake. They're the product of some of the most cancerous gaming scenes around. Damn, even I'm getting toxic now.

And just like that, you've made me need to go for another run today. Thanks!

G
 
Isn't the name of the mod latin for "Voice of the People"? It would be very hypocritical to ignore any groups opinions. Sometimes we do have to pass on certain suggestions because the person is playing a setting which isn't balanced (such as marathon speed or the 43 civ earth map), but I don't think difficulty applies here. For the most part, the game difficulty increases pretty steadily. You do hit certain break points for religion in particular, but otherwise most strategies work. Moving up a difficulty is largely about playing better, the small decisions add up. The other thing is I think some players make un optimal choices, such as taking rationalism when the empire has happiness issue or taking the wrong pantheon. Its often not the case that the pantheon they took is a bad pantheon, its just bad for that situation

I actually think that worker thing is brilliant, both for theme and gameplay. This exploit has been a core part of many players strategies since vanilla, so I understand the reaction against it, but this is an exploit. Having the promotion fade seems like a fair compromise.

I'm finishing my previous game before I start, so I won't comment on the free pottery thing.

We need to a round of tuning for the second tier trees. Not reworks, just tuning. I think artistry could use some rearranging and statecraft needs more yields somewhere in my opinion
 
Aww, I was having such a nice debate with @Owlbebach about the philosophy of game design, and then people on both sides had to bring in the personal attacks. I still had so many points to make, but given the climate of the conversation, I’mma have to bow out.
@Owlbebach, I’d be glad to continue telling you how wrong you are in private. Or we can just call it off, since neither of us are likely to convince the other. But Gazebo’s on my side. :D

I actually do have a particular issue in mind that I believe disproportionately affects lower-difficulty players, and will be starting a new thread on it.
 
I know the topic is kinda geting old, but it is so hilarious how people use dota 2 or starcraft 2 as example of balanced games when a quick google search shows how many professional players of said games critique the game balance, and while overeall stats may seem balanced, a quick check on a league by league case will show how for example some heroes have absolute monster win % on lower skill leagues while having almost non existent win % on the top leagues, averaging out to an 50%.

Not to mention that mobas have almost weekly/monthly balance patches.
 
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