New Version - October 12th (10/12)

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speaking about boudicca, her UA definition says, that foreign religion shouldnt spread to her cities via natural way(pressure,trade routes), but im noticing in 9/19(modpack), that she also doesnt generate natural pressure to neigbour cities. and noticed this same thing in some previous(before 9/19) version too in sp instalation. so is that right or bug? dont write mod conflict since i dont use any dll changing aside VP.

Mod conflict.
 
Alright. I don't know. Maybe I'm just gonna be that guy. Maybe I'm way off base. But maybe, just MAYBE these barbarians are ridiculous as they are right now. I actually feel like you HAVE to take Authority to get anywhere decent right now. This is like playing with raging barbarians on by default, a choice I never liked. There is no longer any medium ground. I have started three different games, and each time, I will get targetted on all sides with an army of two/three warriors against archers, spearmen, handaxes, and even horsemen. Units spawn so often that there is no let-up for any time to heal, no time to train settlers, and no time to build infrastructure. If you're particularly unlucky, you'll even lose your warriors (wow, great production, much waste)! How am I supposed to improve my land if there are barbarians on all my tiles?! Starting a new game is like a coin flip now. Pray you're surrounded by a lot of water or just go Authority and hope for leniency.

The barbs were toned down slightly, but the gist of the general commentary seems to be that they encourage Authority because of the extra kills it provided -- not because it's hard to thrive, otherwise.
 
The barbs were toned down slightly, but the gist of the general commentary seems to be that they encourage Authority because of the extra kills it provided -- not because it's hard to thrive, otherwise.
Eh, I don't know... It just seems a bit much. The camps spawn so close. From as early as turn 2. I've had barbarians run towards me before I even start searching for ruins. There is little time to make any progress here, and I'm not enjoying the game nearly as much as before. I don't want to turn barbarians OFF, but come on... This just feels bad.
 
Alright. I don't know. Maybe I'm just gonna be that guy. Maybe I'm way off base. But maybe, just MAYBE these barbarians are ridiculous as they are right now. I actually feel like you HAVE to take Authority to get anywhere decent right now. This is like playing with raging barbarians on by default, a choice I never liked. There is no longer any medium ground. I have started three different games, and each time, I will get targetted on all sides with an army of two/three warriors against archers, spearmen, handaxes, and even horsemen. Units spawn so often that there is no let-up for any time to heal, no time to train settlers, and no time to build infrastructure. If you're particularly unlucky, you'll even lose your warriors (wow, great production, much waste)! How am I supposed to improve my land if there are barbarians on all my tiles?! Starting a new game is like a coin flip now. Pray you're surrounded by a lot of water or just go Authority and hope for leniency.

Those barbarians can be stopped

Just sign I'M A BARBIE GIRL IN A BARBIE WORLD while wearing a tutu and they'll go away.

But seriously current barbies are worse than previous version. I think it was accidentally increased instead of decreased! Turn 1 multiple Barbie spawns. If you get an early culture ruin and fast Authority it gets bearable and farmable fast.

...I seriously wonder what raging barbarians are now like. Never used it, but it feels like it.

Dominance is not as bad. It now affects ranged too, which is pretty cool. A sidegrade pretty much, except for that Production.
 
Those barbarians can be stopped

Just sign I'M A BARBIE GIRL IN A BARBIE WORLD while wearing a tutu and they'll go away.

But seriously current barbies are worse than previous version. I think it was accidentally increased instead of decreased! Turn 1 multiple Barbie spawns. If you get an early culture ruin and fast Authority it gets bearable and farmable fast.

...I seriously wonder what raging barbarians are now like. Never used it, but it feels like it.

Dominance is not as bad. It now affects ranged too, which is pretty cool. A sidegrade pretty much, except for that Production.

Barb Camps spawn about 15% more slowly than before. It is now actually slower than vanilla. Barbs camps start with 2 instead of 1 unit and don't suicide as much.
 
Barb Camps spawn about 15% more slowly than before. It is now actually slower than vanilla. Barbs camps start with 2 instead of 1 unit and don't suicide as much.
That's the problem, though. Starting with two units means right away, they're gunning you down. You use your warrior to stop this first one, so now he needs to heal... but here comes one from another direction! Crap, I have to move him over there! He gets there, and then there's an archer coming at you from the camp you defeated the first warrior from... You have no choice but to charge the archer because otherwise, he'll just pelt you with arrows while you're trying to heal, so now you're at 10 HP and... are you kidding me?! A horseman on turn 30?! So you build MORE warriors. But horsemen are tough cookies, and you lose some. Suddenly, you realize you're not exploring; camps are not dying... camps are just spawning. Now you're techs behind and four more barbarians are headed your way. It constantly gets worse given that you can't take out camps as easily with them being so reactive. Now, if you constantly have to train warriors at the beginning of the game, nothing is going to get set up. It is now highly feasible to rush Bronze Working and save some gold to upgrade your warrior and purchase another spearman, but even then, if you're surrounded on all sides... Wait, are there actually RUINS beyond this fog?
 
Why the nerfs to authority? It's one, if not the worst policy tree in the game.

I don't like the nerf neither but the raging spam of Barbarians is carrying the tree currently. It's not that bad. Early game without Authority is now a true pain, and even with Authority your first 2-3 builds should be fighty units. As it is, your first purchase should be Scout into Warrior (if Aztec, REJOICE! JAGGY-JAGGY FAITH GOLD SACRIFICES) I don't like current barbie spawns tbh, they should start a bit later. The spawns should be a bit more frequent, but they shouldn't start with an instant second unit.

If we compare policy tree by its fellow era equivalents, it's still leagues above Imperialism which is just a weird tree. Outside of free Factory, Farms and its super-powerful finisher (and GG/GA generation if Japan/Sweden), everything in this tree is just bad. It's first three policies are made up of random, underwhelming filler elements that feel like things that couldn't be fit anywhere else so they were just put into Imperialism. Lower upgrade cost is peanuts compared to the gold gotten from doing literally anything in Industry, you get more unhappiness than industry because of no gold and no significant -poverty per city. You can do better at conquest when going Industry. Only after you finish Imperialism does it become awesome because everything good in it was put at the very end. Industry starts great and ends great.
 
Authority is a really strong policy tree :p

And stop crying about Barb Camps, please. Barbarians are stupid, weak and easy to kill, especially with Authority. Just use flanking, terrain (especially this, barbs even attack you if you fortify on +35% defense hill), tanking by Cities and Archers for support. I got Barbarian Cataphracts (28CS) in 7 turn (because of some bug, probably Enginseer's CBO E&D) and still I killed them somehow.
 
That's the problem, though. Starting with two units means right away, they're gunning you down. You use your warrior to stop this first one, so now he needs to heal... but here comes one from another direction! Crap, I have to move him over there! He gets there, and then there's an archer coming at you from the camp you defeated the first warrior from... You have no choice but to charge the archer because otherwise, he'll just pelt you with arrows while you're trying to heal, so now you're at 10 HP and... are you kidding me?! A horseman on turn 30?! So you build MORE warriors. But horsemen are tough cookies, and you lose some. Suddenly, you realize you're not exploring; camps are not dying... camps are just spawning. Now you're techs behind and four more barbarians are headed your way. It constantly gets worse given that you can't take out camps as easily with them being so reactive. Now, if you constantly have to train warriors at the beginning of the game, nothing is going to get set up. It is now highly feasible to rush Bronze Working and save some gold to upgrade your warrior and purchase another spearman, but even then, if you're surrounded on all sides... Wait, are there actually RUINS beyond this fog?

I agree in parts, horseman on turn 30 or so is REALLY ANNOYING and Archers seen to follow a even early spawn time (they spawn just a few turns after warriors), the exploration of the map and the search for ruins and city states becomes really difficult in the firsts turns. I personally like to build the council, shrine, monument and granary as soon as possible, but now i really need to train more warriors. The techs delay is true too, although i don't think the surround situation is common at the point to revert the 2 units change.

One thing i noticed (correct me if i'm wrong), is the case when a military CS don't attack a barbs camp just 2 or 3 tiles far from it (or at least in a efficient way), ending in more and more barbs trying to dominate the CS until they finally take it, come on, a military CS could do better or at least be more active.

Finally, anyone notice a really agressive civs expansion ? We came at the point that is not more "i will take this region later" to "i have to take this region NOW because the AI will certainly take it in a few turns", generating a "more cities run" even though the cities already created has almost nothing yet, but at the top of all, the very funny fact is when the region take it by the other civ is almost between two or more of my cities, the "friendly" civ practically signed a war declaration without knowing (or knowing, who knows).
 
Finally, anyone notice a really agressive civs expansion ? We came at the point that is not more "i will take this region later" to "i have to take this region NOW because the AI will certainly take it in a few turns", generating a "more cities run" even though the cities already created has almost nothing yet, but at the top of all, the very funny fact is when the region take it by the other civ is almost between two or more of my cities, the "friendly" civ practically signed a war declaration without knowing (or knowing, who knows).

I feel that the AI gets too much of a bonus against barbarians in the early game on the higher difficulty levels, making it too easy to expand. I actually enjoy the challenge of fighting off raging barbarians in the early game to "earn" the right to build new cities. But it's too easy for the AI to crush barbarians and rapidly expand with their enormous combat bonuses. If those bonuses were toned down just a bit then the AI would have to fight harder to defeat barbarians and wouldn't have such an easy time expanding quickly to all the prime city locations.

Overall, though, I really like the new barbarians in the latest versions. Now I immediately build an extra warrior and give my first scout the Survivalist promotions so that it can both scout & help take down barbarian camps. That's usually enough to clear paths to the cities that I want to found.
 
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Authority is a really strong policy tree :p

And stop crying about Barb Camps, please. Barbarians are stupid, weak and easy to kill, especially with Authority. Just use flanking, terrain (especially this, barbs even attack you if you fortify on +35% defense hill), tanking by Cities and Archers for support. I got Barbarian Cataphracts (28CS) in 7 turn (because of some bug, probably Enginseer's CBO E&D) and still I killed them somehow.
It is a valid concern. Players should not be forced to play with the equivalent of raging barbarians every game. Maybe you like it. I don't. Don't tell me to "stop crying."
 
That's the problem, though. Starting with two units means right away, they're gunning you down. You use your warrior to stop this first one, so now he needs to heal... but here comes one from another direction! Crap, I have to move him over there! He gets there, and then there's an archer coming at you from the camp you defeated the first warrior from... You have no choice but to charge the archer because otherwise, he'll just pelt you with arrows while you're trying to heal, so now you're at 10 HP and... are you kidding me?! A horseman on turn 30?! So you build MORE warriors. But horsemen are tough cookies, and you lose some. Suddenly, you realize you're not exploring; camps are not dying... camps are just spawning. Now you're techs behind and four more barbarians are headed your way. It constantly gets worse given that you can't take out camps as easily with them being so reactive. Now, if you constantly have to train warriors at the beginning of the game, nothing is going to get set up. It is now highly feasible to rush Bronze Working and save some gold to upgrade your warrior and purchase another spearman, but even then, if you're surrounded on all sides... Wait, are there actually RUINS beyond this fog?
It is a valid concern. Players should not be forced to play with the equivalent of raging barbarians every game. Maybe you like it. I don't. Don't tell me to "stop crying."

VP trends toward becoming harder and harder, but it's not "raging barbarians." Consider dropping a level.
 
barbarians are funy and much more tough, FINALLY. you need to be rly isolated to get into problems you described, bcoz from my experience, that's still just a race for encampemnts. About tactical AI. They dont even have a chance use bonuses from authority tree even against other AI, bcoz of their rescuing nature. They handle well mounted and so-so ranged units, but they are awfull with infantry and siege. They try to save unit which has 50-60 HP instead use other nearby to flank oponent and heal through logistics. I would rather see this completely deleted from Ai logic. They are absolutely uncapable in pushing with their units and only thing a player need is few hills and flat jungles/forests to defend position, bcoz Ai rather escape to heal instead go and try make at least 1-1 ratio. These observations are from my king games throughout all of my games and version i played with VP. It may sounds rude,harshly and ungratefully, but thats a just way i comment things.
 
I am confused by "barbs are too strong" and "authority is too weak" arguments in the same thread. Which is it?
 
I am confused by "barbs are too strong" and "authority is too weak" arguments in the same thread. Which is it?

With the current barb rate, Authority is good. Both convenient and nice yield-wise, doesn't force you to declare war on someone if you want to keep up provided barbies keep coming to try and interest you in their fantastic world of plastic.

I'm getting used to the current barbs, I could see it remaining as it is. It's just that your first 2 builds should always be 2xWarrior or 1Scout1Warrior (or 2 Jags), Monument/Shrine comes later. You can't just go Scout into Monument/Shrine like you could 3 versions ago.
 
and second note is, that warmongering/fighting civs are finally a thing. that was a first game where Askia completely eradicated Brazilians and left Japan with one poor city, maintained 2 foreign capitals.Greece was already eliminated when i found Montezuma looking at my caravel from Athene's walls. And Before i ended a game, won with culture, Gustavus together with some minor support by Ramkhampoigeang(or whatever) completely wiped out Haile. I rly like, how they are efficient in wars, but notice that except Gustavus, anyone of them used Authority( Monte+ Askia were tradition). And im a bit suspicious, if that was intended change, or it has something to do with reports by players, talking about Ai unwilling make peace.
 
With the current barb rate, Authority is good. Both convenient and nice yield-wise, doesn't force you to declare war on someone if you want to keep up provided barbies keep coming to try and interest you in their fantastic world of plastic.

I'm getting used to the current barbs, I could see it remaining as it is. It's just that your first 2 builds should always be 2xWarrior or 1Scout1Warrior (or 2 Jags), Monument/Shrine comes later. You can't just go Scout into Monument/Shrine like you could 3 versions ago.

I agree that the overall state is fine, but after three games with 10/9 and 10/12 (2 Authority, 1 Tradition), have yet to wish I'd opened with two unit builds.
 
I agree that the overall state is fine, but after three games with 10/9 and 10/12 (2 Authority, 1 Tradition), have yet to wish I'd opened with two unit builds.

I was surrounded by like 4 camps constantly sending units my way, I needed more than just 2 units to kill 1-2 camps because they just keep rolling out. I had like 4 units running around by the time I made my first settler, one was rushbought asap.

Of course if you're Montezuma, your Jags eat Barbies for breakfast so you can just go with regular Jaguar into Monument or Shrine, just rushbuy one sooner or later. You don't really need Scouts as Monty unless the map is full of nothing but hills (in which case I just restart most of the time, it's just not fun to play civ when hills are pretty much the only terrain around me - movement, everything is too slow)
 
I was surrounded by like 4 camps constantly sending units my way, I needed more than just 2 units to kill 1-2 camps because they just keep rolling out. I had like 4 units running around by the time I made my first settler, one was rushbought asap.

Of course if you're Montezuma, your Jags eat Barbies for breakfast so you can just go with regular Jaguar into Monument or Shrine, just rushbuy one sooner or later. You don't really need Scouts as Monty unless the map is full of nothing but hills (in which case I just restart most of the time, it's just not fun to play civ when hills are pretty much the only terrain around me - movement, everything is too slow)

Okay,
I haven't had a start like the one you just mentioned -- that's for sure! And I was Montezuma for the first two of those games. In my current one I'm the Shoshone, so you could say it's 1) still an edge, and 2) the barb camps in my game could attack the two other civs on my continent as well (although I get the most, because I'm in the middle).

I'll report back after I finish this game and start one with Carthage.
 
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