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New Version - October 28th (10/28)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Oct 28, 2016.

  1. Workerspam

    Workerspam Prince

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    Ranged vs. Siege seems like it could follow the Iron units vs. Horse units model. If there were no promotions to differentiate Iron units from Horse units you would only build Horse units (assuming you have the resources to choose from); 4 move beats 2 move every time. But Iron have a city attack and defensive bonuses and while Horse have a city attack penalty and no defense bonus, differentiating the two unit types neatly and cleanly.

    Ranged already have a penalty when attacking ships (going off memory here, apologies if I'm mistaken). Give Siege a small penalty when attacking land units and the two unit lines will each have a clearly defined purpose while remaining versatile.
     
    Skidizzle likes this.
  2. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I think this is a simple-to-implement and very effective solution. Reminds me of the trireme vs dromon discussion.
     
  3. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Honestly don't think such a change would be needed. Siege-weapons are more expensive and slower in enemy land, that along with the actually good ones costing iron is definitely enough.
    Later on the Archery-line also provides the supressive fire promotion, which gives them a spot to fill.
     
    Gazebo likes this.
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Its funny to see this cycle repeated over and over again. Since the project there have been several times when ranged beat siege, siege beat ranged, etc. The land attack penalty noted has been the solution in previous cycles....I think it makes sense to use it again.
     
  5. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    I feel Ranged Units should come before Siege, not after.
     
  6. Takagi Hiro

    Takagi Hiro Prince

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    The topic tags made me chuckle a little.
     
    Gazebo likes this.
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Supressive fire is ok to differentiate both units, but it comes a little late. When siege units have iron cost, there is a limit on how many siege units you can produce, so if you are short on iron or prefer to have ranged ships, then you are stuck with simple ranged. But with wooden siege units the higher cost is not reason enough. That early, unit maintenance is something to be aware of. Maintenance cost of a trebuchet is the same as the composite archer, so unless I need desperately more units (being at war), trebuchet is going to be my first option, even if I am not planning on doing any conquest.

    See, the skirmisher is a ranged unit with a completely different role. It can be used to skirmish with hit and run tactics, it can be used to help with flanking bonus, chasing and pillaging (like any mounted unit), and other options.
    A siege unit does all that ranged unit can do, and then something else. The slow movement in enemy lands is not such drawback for me, as most of my fights are near my borders. Being weaker in rough terrain either: first you need to position the ranged unit in a hill or in an isolated forest, losing movement points, only for that unit to be a little more resilient (neither would stand a knight charge). On a forested area without hills, ranged cannot match the indirect fire promotion of siege. So, most things that a ranged unit can do better than a siege unit (move faster in enemy land, defend better) are not enough to use it in a different role. Supressive fire is the only thing that encourages to use the ranged unit to cover the back of melee units and this comes ... with machine gun? Ranged units have access to healing promotions, but so do scouts and any melee.

    What I am saying is that, in order to make production of ranged units more desirable, its supportive role should be encouraged earlier, at least with composite bowmen (early archers can be used for rushed attacks, in a time where no siege units are available, so that is sufficient), and strongly, with one or two more promotions dedicated to the support role.

    I dislike the idea that a ranged unit is a cheaper siege unit (doing the same comparison with spearman-swordsman). Without siege units is almost impossible to take inland capitals, so ranged units cannot be considered their cheap replacement. I am going to produce siege units either way. But I can skip ranged units, as siege units can perform quite well in defense too, just staying out of enemy range.
     
    Aldebaran1997 likes this.
  8. Aldebaran1997

    Aldebaran1997 Prince

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    Fair enough.
     
  9. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Just give siege units a higher maintenance cost or do what Civ 4 handled siege weapons(giving other units a bonus versus cities although that's Assyria's UU thing)
     
  10. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Is that even possible? Increase maintenance cost for a specific unit, I mean?
    I thought already about giving archers a promotion to better kill better garnisons, so it might help better at taking cities, but this isn't making a difference in role, just a cheaper version.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
  11. ofu

    ofu Chieftain

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    Why my settler can't build new city?
    Civ5Screen0008.jpg
     
  12. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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  13. Legedi

    Legedi Chieftain

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    I'm my last few military games I have started building a lot less ranged units. It seems like the most efficient armies have been a mix of melee infantry, both types of horses, and siege. I've found that both types of horses end up in my "second" line when pushing an attack, so I have no space for archery units, which do less damage.

    Once I get into a spot where I want to hold the line it is time for siege units. I find that the archery units don't excel at any thing enough to warrant their use most of the time.

    Maybe they should start with the promotion that does extra damage to ranged units? Or the suppression promotion should come earlier in the line.
     
    vyyt, Aldebaran1997 and ashendashin like this.
  14. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Ideally, horses go to the flanks, and ranged to the rear. Siege deployed when the enemy army is defeated and you are ready to take on the city. Scouts ahead, looking for ambushes and recognizing the terrain. At least, that's how these units use to be deployed in real life. Skirmishes are useful when the other army is superior, to weaken it before reaching your defensive position, and to take on supply lines.
     
  15. joosegoose25

    joosegoose25 King

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    Or (and I haven't deliberated much on this), siege units could maybe have their ranged strength weakened and their bonus to fortified units/cities increased to compensate. Ranged should be anti-personnel, siege should be for...well, sieges.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  16. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I was sure CSD's Unit had increased maintenance cost in which the more you were stockpiling on your envoys for surprise alliances the more you had to maintain these stockpiles.. I'm unsure now.
     
  17. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    I too think it would be better if siege weapons were more focused on attacking cities&fortified units, and ranged more on all other units, like JooseGoose said.
     
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  18. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Except that wasn't really the case, cannons and artillery were greatly used in normal non-siege battles
     
  19. vyyt

    vyyt Deity

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    Yes, but catapults and trebuchets were used only for siege. I think it is fine to have the unit lines evolve and alter their roles slightly throughout the game:

    Archers more effective against units, catapults slower and more effective against cities (and more expensive - does anyone really care about this???).

    Then from canons onwards the siege units can become more effective against units (they cost iron)
     
    joosegoose25 likes this.
  20. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    This is so strange... you have -14 happiness during a Golden Age and a settler on year 1825. You should at least have pioneers by now lolol :crazyeye:
     

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