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New Version - September 7th (9-7)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Sep 7, 2017.

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  1. doublex55

    doublex55 Prince

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    The bonus is only to culture specialists. you may not have writers yet when you pick artistry and even if you do, you are still only benefiting from 1/3 of the opener.

    What would be prefered is that progress and authority starts get full benefit from the gwam and tradition gets bonus benefit due to the extea specialists.
     
  2. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    What? Artistry provides +5 Science and +5 Culture when you finish. This is extremely significant in fighting off Illiteracy and Boredom which represents a big problem as an empire gets wider and wider while also contributing against the science/culture cost increase penalty. Traditionally tall empire may not get as strong as a bonus like Artistry does in providing a wide empire. That's why it's known to be a thick policy tree where cities have more resources to urbanize themselves and expand.
     
    Txurce likes this.
  3. Beniito

    Beniito Warlord

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    For my new game as Japan im taking the artistry opener and combining it with the imperialism policy which gives Great admirals and great generals 33% faster. at least on theory it should be OP with Japan's new UA!
     
  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I'm under the impression that the opener only boosts writers, artists, and musicians. Which means in my wide empire of 70 citizens, the opener boosts at most 6 citizens until I get artists guilds (assuming I already have writers guilds already). Its a fair criticism.

    I'd like to see a good source of golden age points that scales with number of cities. This would be a second effect to help out wide. Something like 2 per city or a few points on a building such as the amphitheatre would be a good change
     
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  5. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    Can you explain thick? I thought we just had wide and tall but apparently that's changed now.
     
  6. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    Hey @Gazebo when you run AI games can you play them on doughnut center ocean? It's the most balanced map in the game (and much more balanced than continents).
     
  7. Jakman217

    Jakman217 Chieftain

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    Thick is basically having your wide and tall cakes and eating them both.

    Or more directly it's a hybrid between tall and wide. Lots of well-developed cities, probably not as wide as a wide could go, but most certainly wider than tall. Not super tall, but most cities are well developed enough that they probably could stand on their own.
     
  8. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    So Rome is thick and Assyria is wide?
     
  9. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    I don't see any synergy between Babylon and Artistry... Babylon is very well suited for Scientific Victory, so Fealty is way better, it just gives you way more science than Artistry. Culture will be a problem, but it can be solved somehow, ideally with Inspiration belief, but there are other options

    Maybe add GAP to scaler? Considering how fast do GA cost increase - this is not a big deal
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  10. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Since I'm the expert on Thick because I theorized the concept 2 years ago and invented the term for it.

    Which is why I'll like to add on why wide tends to thicken and tall will tend to thicken because of their corresponding policy tree in the industrial era.

    Industry corresponds with Tall. Gold and gold. Gold is so important for a tall empire if they wish to thicken themselves through expansion. Being able to invest in buildings and continuously invest in spending helps create a thick Tall

    Imperialism correspond with Wide. Monopolies get established and you are rewarded for pursuing them. Farms and Plantations get more improved and so on and helps newly-conquered and developed cities grow and produce more for a thicker wide infrastructure.

    Rationalism corresponds with Thick. Well thick just became thicker and became much more of an incentive to become thicker. Thick civs usually have a weakness of a religious diversity as tall cities tend to stay strong in the majority through population and little usage of the "Inquisition" and wide civs have the overwhelming pressure majority from their amount of cities, but thick civs have a hard time competing with this since religious pressure is much easier to transfer which includes minority. Rationalism helps negate these effects and also makes specialization even better.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    That explanation of thick seems to make a lot of false assumptions. I've won many games as very tall or very wide in the late game, without having to adopt "thickness". Neither one of those strategies is forced to prioritize what you claim. Likewise, overlapping tiles and prioritizing specialists aren't dependent on having a specific number of cities.

    I picture a line. On the far left would be the tallest possible civ (a one city challenge). On the far right would be the widest possible civ (an infinite city challenge). In terms of strategy, only settling one city and settling as many as possible are both pretty bad ideas, hence they are called "challenges"

    To me, all tall vs wide describes is the number of cities. You can play with a small number of cities but not focus growth (Korea or Arabia). You can play with a small number of cities, but not focus on specialists (Assyria or India). You can play very wide and focus science (Babylon). And you can play in between the two as well. If you play smart, most combinations work, but not every combination. Something like Rome played with a tall great person focus makes no sense at all (I'm not saying its impossible to win like this, but its not a good strategy). Several civs have bonuses that pull them in different directions for tall or wide (Assyria and Russia).

    According to Enginseer's description, it sounds like thick is wide. It has a few other ideas, like focusing specialists early and overlapping tiles (which are both fine ideas), but I don't really see how its an alternate strategy. I would just call it "I picked progress but ran out of land".
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    ElliotS likes this.
  12. bigcat88

    bigcat88 King

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    Guys can u explain, why sometimes I cant use Great Writer for Great Work? Slots are free, tried to change city of Great Writer - but don't help. It is a bug or a future(maybe there is a limit of Great Works on each type I can generate total or per era)? If it is a limit, than how big is limit?
     
  13. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    The opener only affects GWAM. The issue here is that the bonus to GA and GM is wasted for a significant period of time unless you're going Tradition.

    I would suggest swapping the opener with Heritage. I think it makes sense. One reason Artistry developed was people's appreciation for the natural wonders of the world. If it's too strong, then maybe tweak the numbers.
     
  14. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    I don't think anyone here contests the power of the scaler.

    The problem here is that the opener provides a delayed benefit for non-Tradition starts ( since you won't have access to Artists and Musician guilds for quite a while ) with no additional component in the policy to tide you over. Most policies with delayed benefits (eg: Happiness from National Wonders) come with additional components that are more immediately useful.

    They also aren't openers which should be more flexible than that. Statecraft boosts quests when they are most relevant. Fealty reduces Faith costs when they are most needed (just as you about to start spreading/buying buildings). What does Artistry's do unless you're Tradition?

    Maybe switch the location of Heritage wonder yields and the opener in the tree? Natural Wonders tend to be settled quickly, and you typically have a World Wonder or two in Classical. Dunno.

    Again I'm not saying Artistry is weak. I just think some power needs to be shifted from the Scaler into the actual policies. Since that would be difficult (scaler provides +1) then reordering some policies might be the next best thing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
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  15. Beniito

    Beniito Warlord

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    If you do squats you get thick :mischief:
     
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  16. randomnub

    randomnub Prince

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    Hi again. So much for 'no new features will be added, just some balance things' ... I miss some months and it looks like I have to re-learn the game :p No really, gj. I'm also laughing alone for something that happened between me and William, that cheap bastard. I'm in dire need of money so I trade him some furs, so far so good.
    He's playing authority and bullying our neighbouring CS looks like. Some turns after he shows with some soldiers at our border:
    civtribute.png
    I bid to his will, then start send trade routes, share religion, stop expand in his direction... yay we're best friends now.
    civgift.png


    I see where this is going to :D He's medium size and still last of the AIs though :p I know that should I play NED I'd even give away my luxuries for free in order to get +3culture/gold early in the game, but he's not trading very aggressively looks like, valuing his own stuff (and mine) as much as a standard AI. If we exclude the hilarious attempt at stealing my monopoly that is.

    Some other interesting stuff happening right now: Babylon had 1 city only at turn ~90 standard deity, wonderwhoreing like a pro. 30 turns later he's catching up and I'm drooling at his capital, but I'm not sure it'll pay off; does his UA help with wonders as well?
    civrusbab.png
     
  17. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    Been playing a rather tight game as the Iroquois this patch and really enjoying the latest round of balance changes. The newly-revamped Dutch were also in the game and were competing with China, Indonesia, and myself for the top leaderboard spots (in overall score). The game has only progressed to the Renaissance so far, but some thoughts and comments about the experience so far.

    - Overall Civilization balance seems a lot better, with the Netherlands actually putting up a fight for once even against well known runaway Civs like China and Indonesia. The AI seems to understand the changes made to monopolies, with the Netherlands trying to wheel and deal for luxuries to maximize their number of monopolies. However, despite the nerf to Indonesia they have still been a powerhouse this game, as have China which have managed to completely dominate in culture generation and technological development, despite both Babylon and Korea directly competing (and warring) with them. I managed to barely keep up with China on policies, and that's partly due to being able to found my own religion and grabbing Inspiration, and nabbing the Oracle. The Chinese UA is just really, really good regardless of which starting policy tree China picks (they went Authority in my game).

    - Speaking of policy trees, this has been a rather unusual game as despite there being 14 active Civs (on a huge Communitas map) that picked a rather even mix of Progress/Authority/Tradition, once we made it to the Medieval Era not a single Civ picked Fealty despite several seemingly being setup quite well for it. In fact, almost every Civ picked Statecraft of all things, with a few going for Artistry instead. I know the AI is capable of understanding which tree will benefit their chosen victory path the most, so it is interesting that not a single one saw Fealty as the superior choice. I'm curious to see how the Industrial Era+ plays out as I am planning for a Diplomatic Victory and want to try the changes made to the Industry tree, but I'm tempted to go Imperialism given how much the other Civs on my continent hate me so much (partially because I DoW'd Korea and China in the Ancient Era to capture their Settlers so they couldn't forward settle me, and they never, ever forgave me for it). I've been permanently denounced (as in, they renew the denouncement as soon as it expires) by 4 out of 6 other Civs on my continent since the Ancient Era, but have been on a rotating schedule of regular DoW's from these Civs all game despite my only truly aggressive action having been capturing those Settlers from Korea and China right at the very beginning of the game. I think the only reason the other 2 Civs denounced me is because they're jealous of my territory, as I have not taken any aggressive actions towards them save for defending my lands when they DoW me. Normally I play pretty peacefully, but its hard to stay peaceful and still win on the harder difficulties. It's going to be interesting once the World Council starts and all of these Civs battling for a Diplo victory start fighting for a World Religion vote... I expect things will get even uglier.
     
  18. Beniito

    Beniito Warlord

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    How come when Someone declares war on you, sometimes there is no Negotiate peace option in leader screen ?
     
  19. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    I think he is a vassal of someone else, so he cannot make peace on its own, you have to make peace with its master (and you will be automatically at peace with him)
     
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  20. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    Beniito, it's also possible someone paid him to declare war on you, in which case he can't make peace with you for 10 turns.
     
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