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[GS] New victory conditions speculation: Scientific Victory

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Josephias, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. Josephias

    Josephias King

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    Thinking victories are going to be adjusted in Gathering Storm (and just getting to the end of my current R&F game), it came to my mind Scientific Victory is one of the most difficult ones to counter -- For domination, you fight back with your units, and can take back the capitols required for winning. Regarding cultural, increasing your culture production, increases the treshold of tourism that is required for the win. For faith it is the same as domination: you can fight back with your religious units. I suppose for diplomatic you will be able to use your own retrieved favor to win any of the resolution the player campaining for leader of the world needs to get. But what about science?

    For sure you can (try) blocking progress, deactivating spaceports (and, if they have the time, industrial zones too) with your spies or your army. However, the fact is you only "block"/stop, but are not able to push back the progress made towards science victory. Once a player starts building space projects, it is like a timer on you with five (four normally if you realice when you get the message they have already a satellite) steps, that you can delay, but not take back.

    This is just speculation and wishful thinking, but I would be happy if they adressed this when reworking the space victory. The idea I have in mind would be to add a bit more drama to the space race, specially to the colony in Mars --> The main point should not be just to build the colony, but to ensure it thrives. To do so, you should be able to bring the three parts up, but also to keep them runing for an specific time. And this (and here comes the twist), against the fact they are in a hostile environment.

    You could implement it in a way all parts of the colony require the others to "survive" in Mars (or, if it fits more, make it a circular need. E.g: habitation (people) needs hydrophonics (food) to be able to stay long periods in Mars, hydrophonics (plants) needs the reactor (energy) to keep an environment in which they can survive, and the reactor (machinery) needs tehnicians (from the habitation) for maintenance). The main point is each of the modules will have a lifespan, that would be greatly reduced if missing any other of the modules. (I.e. each module could have a 50-turn life, but if missing the "support" module, it could be losing 2-or-3 turns per turn, instead of 1).
    Considering this, your objective would be to get all three modules running together at least for 10 turns, which would introduce a planning challenge. It would be not just "I put up my reactor up in mars on turn 250, and now in turn 320 I send the habitation and I win", but ¿when I should be builiding all the parts so they degrade the least posible? ¿should I use more tan one city?.
    Losing a launch to an spy (or bomber, or tank) would be more critical, and be maybe shorter, "maintenance" launch projects could be added so you could gain some extra turns of your components in mars in case someone ruined your initial Schedule. (And of course, if a module reached the point it was fully degraded, you would receive its launch project again).

    Future era techs could be aded to enhance module durability, or even re-launch "new-tech" modules that could be permanenty stationed in mars without degradation, or even reduce the number of time "running" in Mars to get the victory. The key point is none of your launchs to mars (except perhaps the ones from last future era techs) is a sure step towards victory, but you need to keep maintaining them until you reach it, against the risk of losing the work done and having to re-start again.
    I think this would spice up quite a bit the science victory (or fighting against it). ¿What's your view?
     
  2. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    I suspect the only change to the science victory will be to push some of the parts to the new future era techs.

    I'm personally okay with the only direct counter to someone else's science victory being to win your own victory faster.

    I think your suggestions, while creative, ultimately amount to adding a "push your luck" element: gamble on sending parts earlier or
    wait until the odds are better.

    A large segment of the civ community will objective object if the difference between them winning or losing comes down to an RNG related to the success of the delivery of their last Mars component.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  3. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold King

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    Scientific victory should be a Dyson sphere.
    I'm not sure how that contributes to this thread, but I stand by it.
     
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  4. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I wish there were more different versions of a science victory. Just one flavour - go to mars - is a bit boring.

    At some point they’re going to need to overhaul Victory conditions. Probably not in Civ VI though. I’d like one main victory type, that culture, diplomacy etc all feed into. And then various lesser (easier) basically science victory type win conditions, so if you’re shooting for the main victory type you have to worry about both your direct competitors for that victory type and also smaller or weaker Civs sniping victory.
     
  5. crouchy

    crouchy Chieftain

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    The thing that bugs me about science victory in particular is that by mid-game it's usually pretty obvious who is going to win.
     
  6. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

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    I'd argue interstellar colonization is easier than building a Dyson sphere.

    But if you feel like adding six future eras in a mod, go for it. I'll probably pick it up.
     
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  7. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold King

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    I would disagree, given that blood pressure gradients, bone density, eyesight, aqueous biochemistry, all substantially limit human travel in space. We could feasibly colonize other planets, but it would necessarily be with other machines/organisms, not ourselves.

    Plus, it just feels natural to me that if Civilization is about achieving Kardashev level 1, then end game should somehow involves progressing toward Kardashev level 2.
     
  8. kryat

    kryat Prince

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    I’m going to make a wild prediction and guess that the new condition will have only tangentially have something to do with space and everything to do with environment. I think local terraforming lies in the future eras. I think there will still be a role for the spaceport, but not Mars. The whole build three parts and assemble them is getting stale.
     
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  9. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    I guess it will be the lazy road: nothing changes, the modules are just unlocked by later techs.
     
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  10. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I was just assuming the spaceport projects that had to do with Mars would just be pushed back to the Future Era, while the others stay the same to space things out, no pun intended.
    I remember them saying certain victory conditions will get reworked, but I don't think it will be too drastic of a change since I believe a Cultural victory still requires tourism.
     
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  11. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

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    I'd say those things are easier to solve than creating a Dyson sphere. We're going to need to do some crazy things to achieve that. Mine half of Mars or something like that?
     
  12. Zigzagzigal

    Zigzagzigal Chieftain

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    I suspect there'll be two main changes:
    • Mars projects moved to the future era
    • Power as a prerequisite for space projects.
    If power is important to scientific victories, it means you have a few more counterplay options available - using Spies to destroy dams, tactical bombing of power-heavy areas, implementing pro-environment energy policies and so forth.
     
  13. Temppu

    Temppu Warlord

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    If the reworked Scientific Victory would be about stopping climate change, that would be cool and would fit to this expansion. This would likely be too big of a change for an expansion pack, however.

    As a more realistic guess, there will likely be some variation in SV depending on the way Future Techs will turn out.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
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  14. Cerilis

    Cerilis Not Warlord

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    New science victory: Stop global warming. You dont need a spaceship if earth is still liveable! :D

    And that would indeed be a science victory.

    Damn it, you beat me by a minute!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2018
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  15. Temppu

    Temppu Warlord

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    Great minds think alike :)
     
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  16. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS King

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    I almost fell for the troll bait.
     
  17. Maquis

    Maquis King

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    I'm hoping that "colonize Mars" will become the midpoint of the SV, and the new end goal will once again be Alpha Centauri (or for a change a pace, Tau Ceti!)

    With the announcement that the future era will be variable, they could do some interesting things where you would have to sacrifice military techs to go for the SV, and risk being steamrolled by a militaristic civ.
     
  18. Softly

    Softly Warlord

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    If all they do is move the module parts to the new era, but leave the royal society where it is, this will drastically change the balance of the science game. As it stands right now when rushing a science victory with a science heavy civ (Korea, Scotland, Arabia) the real bottleneck is getting the royal society in time to build the spaceparts. If royal society stays in the modern era, but the spaceparts move back an era, then even if you almost completely ignore culture you will still be able to get to your T3 government in time.
     
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  19. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS King

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    I think an interesting alternative to the mars project would be to get a fusion reactor up and running on every continent in the game. When a reactor comes online, it powers the entire continent with free, 100% clean energy and all other power plants are deactivated and turned into museums that give tourism. The first civ that either builds a reactor on each continent themselves (via colonizing or occupying a city/cities) or uses diplomatic favor to force another civ to allow it to build a reactor in one of their cities is the winner.

    If two or more civs compete simultaneously, whoever built the most reactors when the final continent is powered wins. If it's a tie, whoever built the first reactor wins.

    This would obviously tie-in to the ecology theme of Gathering Storm, but it would also tie-in to the world congress. If you've the ability to build reactors and then ban all oil/coal power plants, you might piss some civs off, but you could soften the blow with offering to build a fusion reactor for them. Or, you could just build it for them outright by offering a lot in diplomacy. As mentioned before, you could always send your navy over and enlighten them to your infinite wisdom of a clean-energy future by taking some cities and building it there.

    For cultural players, getting a fusion reactor up could mean getting that extra tourism boost to win the game before all the other reactors get up and working. So it could be to their advantage to accept a fusion reactor project.

    Lastly, you could choose to disconnect your power grid from all others to deny a science player this victory -- with terrible diplomatic consequences.
     
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  20. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    Not if you're watching the AI play, it isn't. It's surprising how often the early science leader meanders, letting another AI civ catch up to them. Same thing for the culture leader, and you think "she's got this", then suddenly the AI stops doing anything to generate more tourism.
     

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