New warmonger criteria and penalties?

[Maktaka]

Has anyone figured out what the new criteria and penalties are for the warmonger label? I found last night that a single declaration of war will get you Warmonger from an uninvolved civilization, something that didn't happen so quickly before. It also seems that refusing peace offerings can advance you towards warmonger, which is definitely new if that's the case.

With a single war getting me warmonger with three civs (counting the one I attacked), I didn't dare try finishing him off and risk pissing off the other two civs in my game.

 

[OmniPotent42]

I have noticed that if you look at the diplo penalty with another civ it will say if they tolerate warmongers or not, which would perhaps make the instant warmonger label less severe than you suggest.

 

[adwcta]

I have noticed that if you look at the diplo penalty with another civ it will say if they tolerate warmongers or not, which would perhaps make the instant warmonger label less severe than you suggest.

It says that.... but it's still bright red, and doesn't go away (unless you clear it by sharing an ideology; which is neat btw, they just forgive you for everything you've done if you pick the same ideology).

They said warmonger penalties will be shorter-duration.... but I think that only applies if you don't finish off a civ.

 

[Yzman]

My current game I started on a continent with Shoshone and Carthage as Poland. I declared war on Shoshone because they were taking a lot of land fast. I took a few cities, sued for peace and got a city. Carthage later declared war on them and I declared as well a few turns later to get the remaining cities that I hadn't the first time. I finished off Shoshone. Currently no one in the game calls me a warmonger, including Carthage.

Unfortunately I have no idea how this works.

 

[emeleye]

I had not been involved in any wars. The Shoshone declared war on me. I beat back their forces and then took one of his secondary cities. I was called a warmonger. I can't remember who it was but it was a general peaceful leader who labelled me as such. Perhaps that is a factor.

 

[apocalypse105]

My current game I started on a continent with Shoshone and Carthage as Poland. I declared war on Shoshone because they were taking a lot of land fast. I took a few cities, sued for peace and got a city. Carthage later declared war on them and I declared as well a few turns later to get the remaining cities that I hadn't the first time. I finished off Shoshone. Currently no one in the game calls me a warmonger, including Carthage.

Unfortunately I have no idea how this works.

Which where the other civs who are in you're game Maybe they changed the warmonger hate for each leader

 

[Yzman]

Well the other civs hadn't been met yet when Shoshone was finished so that is probably the largest factor. I don't believe the AI knows about something like that if they don't know you.

The other civs were

Japan
Aztecs
Morocco
Siam
Mongolia ( finished by Siam shortly after I met them)

 

[OmniPotent42]

I wiped Carthage off the face of the earth in my game, and after a bit of lux-gifting and spy-forgiving they forgot about it pretty soon.

 

[apocalypse105]

http://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/1i1q7l/keeping_one_ai_city_alive_no_longer_spares_you/

This person says its know related to taking cities

 

[MantaRevan]

Assyria DoWd me and I took them out. In response to this I got a huge huge warmonger penalty with everyone alive and was immediately chain denounced, worsening the situation. It never went away over the entirety of the 500 turn game.

 

[apocalypse105]

Assyria DoWd me and I took them out. In response to this I got a huge huge warmonger penalty with everyone alive and was immediately chain denounced, worsening the situation. It never went away over the entirety of the 500 turn game.

I guess dennis didn't changed it so he lied he promised in his live stream that you won't be necesairy a warmonger when you take out a civ or declare war..


He olso said he was going to change the warmonger penalty for gods and king but if i read this topic he didn't

 

[Simplicity2]

The fact that it's related to city taking and not DoWs makes sense. Crazy Monte was my neighbor. He attacks me like he always does. We sue for peace. He attacks me AGAIN, and I take out his one city. And I'm a warmonger.

 

[apocalypse105]

The fact that it's related to city taking and not DoWs makes sense. Crazy Monte was my neighbor. He attacks me like he always does. We sue for peace. He attacks me AGAIN, and I take out his one city. And I'm a warmonger.

Wait so there is actualy prove of that I take my words back it has changed interesting i've olso heard that liberating doesn't count as a warmonger penalty it decreases it

 

[Daravon]

(unless you clear it by sharing an ideology; which is neat btw, they just forgive you for everything you've done if you pick the same ideology).

Is this true? Does sharing an ideology negate/eliminate the warmonger penalty?

As far as I know, the new formula was described in the Reddit thread above. Warmonger points are now generated on a per-city basis, and are also scaled to the number of cities in the world. The new formula means that conquering several cities now generates more warmonger points than in G&K. Conquering cities in the early game now generates a prohibitive number of warmonger points due to the scaling formula.

The only known exceptions are:

• Civs will ignore warmonger points from DoW'ing/conquering a civ they're also at war with.
• Civs will ignore warmonger points if they haven't met you yet.

It would be great to know if there are other exceptions for shared ideologies, or if any other new factors affect this. The civs in my game seemed to react less negatively if they disliked the civ that I conquered, but that might just be my perception.

It looks like people interested in early warmongering should ensure that they haven't met many other civs and that they're attacking a civ that's already fighting multiple wars.

 

[adwcta]

What I meant was... a civ hated me for warmongering (Poland, so LOTS of warmonger hate). Then, he picked Autocracy. Still hated me... Then, I picked Autocracy. Instantly, the giant red warmongering notice disappeared. It's Poland too, so it's not like he's being deceptive.

I think AFTER you share ideologies, you can re-accumulate warmongering points. I think it just wipes your slate clean when you (or they, maybe) first pick the shared ideology.

All of the above is untested, going off of one data point. Poland was the only other Autocrat in my game.

 

[Lyoncet]

My experience backs this up. I got DoWed by Rome, who had 3 cities. It was Archipelago, so there wasn't much room to expand. I think most civs had 5, or fewer, and Dido may have had 6 by that point. I took over Rome, he gave me Cumae in a peace deal. I took a surprising amount of warmonger hate for that, but since everyone was tight on space and low on cities, it would make sense if the fewer-cities-equals-more-penalty rule were at work.

 

[ptoss1]

I've gone to war with Russia only for them to befriend me later on. Also denounced them. The negs don't seem to be doing anything.

 

[Daravon]

My experience backs this up. I got DoWed by Rome, who had 3 cities. It was Archipelago, so there wasn't much room to expand. I think most civs had 5, or fewer, and Dido may have had 6 by that point. I took over Rome, he gave me Cumae in a peace deal. I took a surprising amount of warmonger hate for that, but since everyone was tight on space and low on cities, it would make sense if the fewer-cities-equals-more-penalty rule were at work.

Yeah. I don't mind the new per-city mechanic for warmongering, but I really hope they patch out the inverse-correlation part. I don't really understand why the scaling is in there.

 

[Muskie]

Assyria DoWd me and I took them out. In response to this I got a huge huge warmonger penalty with everyone alive and was immediately chain denounced, worsening the situation. It never went away over the entirety of the 500 turn game.

Sic semper tyrannis!

 

[Lyoncet]

Yeah. I don't mind the new per-city mechanic for warmongering, but I really hope they patch out the inverse-correlation part. I don't really understand why the scaling is in there.

I actually think it's fine. This way if you conquer 3 of a civ's 4 cities on a crowded map, you get smacked a lot harder than if you took 3 of their 20 because they're a fed warmonger AI. Seems like a reasonable way of balancing it out.