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New warmonger criteria and penalties?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Maktaka, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. Darkmatterx76

    Darkmatterx76 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    7
    I'm playing a game now and after a war I saw that I was tagged a warmonger, so I went back and looked at my saves to see when it happened. It turns out that they decided I was a warmonger after 1 turn. At that point I had declared war and crossed into the other civs land but hadn't taken a city or anything. Also the civ I went to war with wasn't my friend or anything like that. It sure takes the fun out of playing when you can get called a warmonger for the rest of the game after 1 turn at war.... ><
     
  2. Johnnymac1418

    Johnnymac1418 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2013
    Messages:
    30
    In my game I was just sitting on my continent trying to get people to hate others. I started 5 or 6 wars but never attacked anyone. But then, I notice that I have a warmonger penalty with everyone and then everyone comes to me and tells me that they are afraid. My diplomacy is now ruined thanks to the warmonger penalty that I didn't do anything to get...
     
  3. isau

    isau Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    3,056
    I would be fine with the way war monger status works if the game more clearly explained who will be upset by each action. The World Congress does this pretty well. The war penalty is similar to a World Congress that didn't tell you that (for example) Spain will be angry if you cancel Portugal's supply of truffles. Without that extra bit of explanation it feels random. Usually if I declare war against someone the world doesn't like I can take a few cities without worrying. But there is no obvious pattern and the consequences of a mistake are dire.

    If nothing else an option in the World Congress that allowed you declare a Civ as a "world enemy" who anyone could invade without diplomatic penalty would be a nice addition. Though of course it would probably be the war mongers themselves who got hit with this most frequently so it may just backfire. :)
     
  4. Andy06r

    Andy06r Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    89
    So this is why early wars are bad!

    Standard map, everyone has 3 cities and 16 city states. About the time you start fighting with classical era UUs like Rome.

    Lets say you DoW and take the expansion and the capital, leaving the third. This is pretty typical I would think.

    2.5 for DoW
    10 * 52 / (3 * 40) = 4.333 for first city
    10 * 52 / (2 * 40) = 6.5 for second city

    You rack up 13.333 bad boy. That's more than the equivalent in GnK.

    Kill the last city and you add 13 more bad boy for 26 total,which is nearly double the GnK penalty for a complete kill.

    Kill a city state at this exact point in the game? 15.5 (2.5 & 13) more, which is also higher than GnK.

    ....... And this system is better? All the warmonger civs with medieval or earlier biases are royally screwed, and peaceful civs who want some breathing room are particularly punished.

    EDIT - The dev's example was for twenty city Russia only being worth 0.5 bad boy. So warring the (wide) runaway is negligible. This also really buffs tall civs. Take one city from India - congrats, you're a pariah.
     
  5. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2013
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    2,008
    They should srsly srsly srsly fix this (you shouldn't be labeled a warmonger if the other civ declares war on you...)
    Doesn't matter if you do all your warmongering earlier before you meet all the civs though (one friend is usually enough to stay alive through RA and the "common friend" buff helps)
     
  6. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2004
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    12,316
    The principle is good... Civs with the warmonger tag (ie take cities) are a threat to the balance of power... If they aren't ganged up on, they could run away.

    The early penalty is a bit large. The decay should take care of that though.

    Tweaking the decay is probably the best.
     
  7. Halcyan2

    Halcyan2 Emperor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2012
    Messages:
    1,380
    Just made a post on how much I love the new warmonger system:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=507402

    Taking the last city is very bad. Just like how it was very bad in Vanilla and G&K.

    Yes, it is.

    No they're not. The warmonger civs with good early UU's can use those units to decimate their opponent's armies (those UU's also count more for military strength calculations). Then instead of conquering cities directly, you crush their army and take those cities in a peace deal instead. The only warmonger penalty you get is for the initial DoW (which is actually less than in Vanilla and G&K). The key is that you don't run around conquering those cities directly.

    Destroy India's army and accept the city in a peace deal. Problem solved! :king:
     
  8. isau

    isau Deity

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    It's that particular aspect of the penalty that I personally find the hardest to justify. You can just take out their units, never engage the city, and end up capturing cities with significantly less penalty because the AI will just hand them to you. You actually seem to get less od a diplo hit for chain DoWs-followed-by-peace than just taking the same cities within a single war (that someone else declared on you!) Plus you get the city with full population and don't have to burn your supply of units to do it.
     
  9. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Taking cities in a peace deal should be counted as taking them in war. (perhaps at a slight discount)
     
  10. Darkmatterx76

    Darkmatterx76 Chieftain

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    So, does anyone have any idea why I got the warmonger tag after 1 turn?
     
  11. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Prince

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    Yes -- the Warmonger system is not a flat penalty, it's a sliding scale. Anyone who is not your friend will always brand anyone who declares war as a warmonger, unless they themselves are declaring war with the same person right alongside you. This initial penalty is very small, probably even less of a transgression than voting down a world congress vote. Actually conquering a city is when you start getting penalties that would lead to denunciations, unless the AI tolerates warmongers. People who hate warmongers will almost immediately denounce for taking a city, while some people who tolerate warmongers will never bat an eye, even once you've conquered half the world.

    There are several ways to mitigate this penalty. Being friends with someone else, and declaring war on someone who is their denounced enemy, will prevent this penalty from counting against you until it has reached a critical mass. Anyone that is at war alongside you won't give you very much warmonger penalty at all, it will instead be "we fought together against a common foe" bonus, which is a rather large bonus that can even negate the effects of differing ideology in the atomic era, and differing ideology in the atomic era is pretty much the worst single thing you can do.

    However, there is good news to anyone dissatisfied with warmongering right now -- a dev posted on Steam that they are looking at the warmonger system for the fall patch.
     
  12. Electric Ferret

    Electric Ferret Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Messages:
    11
    I start a game as Spain, pop a scout, and discover that a near by City State is going to have both tiles of the Great Barrier Reef in it's border. Well, what are you gonna do? I'm Spain. got to have that!

    Played peacefully the rest of the game. Was never in another war but conquering that one ancient / classical era City State left me a Warmonger in the eyes of the AI Civs for the rest of the game. A few eventually let it go towards the end but a couple Civs always had me with the red "We Think You are a Warmonger" status tool tip.

    Doesn't seem to take much to tick off the AI.
     

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