New Yield Order/Crime

[Gilgamesch]

Order/Crime


Since Gyogen is very busy, i will start this thread even when the new yield is his idea

So Gyogen created a new yield Order/crime, that will be included in the next version.
It works similar like the Health yield, and will affect the game, via buildings/technologies and policies.


*Buildings like the policy station will increase the Order in your empire and i.e buildings like the market will increase Crime.

The higher the crime yield the more the chance that some event may appaire in the game.
Gyogen can say more about this, iam just adjustig the new values into the current version, and miss some insight


Anyway if you would suggest and building/technology and or policy that should affect Order/Crime, let us now and we will see if we can include it.

Oh and all related buildings/technologies that effect Order will get the new Order/Crime icon in there name, similar like we did it with the Health parts.

Ok thats all..

All the best
Gilga

 

[Gilgamesch]

Reserved;=)

 

[gaborpesti]

Hi, I have some concern with this concept: It appears to me history moved towards less crime despite more lentient punishments. Furthermore richer societies has less crime. Compare just danish statistics with brazilian ones. Therefore market etc should have inverse effect: reduce crime rather than increase it.

 

[Gilgamesch]

Hmm since the market is avaible in the ancient era, and it was historical a place where thiefs where very activ, i see it a little bit different.

Also i cant agree to the statement that richer societies have less crime.

I.E the U.S.A. are one of the richest countries in the world, but also have more criminial activities then I.E Germany.

Anyway where money is, there are always some criminals.....

 

[gyogen2]

I actually work in the field in r.l. I don't want to sadden any one with all the statistics, but nearly every second a crime just happened.

Anyway, the real reason behind the mechanic, besides adding a little more to game play, is to give some more weight behind some of the decisions players will make in the event system. There is a new yield called order, the idea is to keep it balanced. The further it gets below 0, the more crime there may be, relative to the number.

each city has it's own order rating, and there is also a civ wide rating. This system is also an option which can be turned of in game setup. If it is off, the number will always be 0 and there will be nothing to worry about.

 

[gaborpesti]

While I understand the reasons behind your opinion, I think you fail at the definition what a crime is, and what impact criminals have on an average member of the society: Nowaday even in the US Joe Average will be pickpocketed once and eventually one person in his wider family is robbed. Nevertheless due to insurance etc, chance that it will impact his standard of living significantly is negligible. The same joe in the middle age can easily lose his life for some type of crime or as a merchant go bankrupt and starve due to a similar incidennt, not to mention that killing lower classes was quite accepted, and the very reason of Hammurapi's or St Istvan's(Hungary's founder) strict laws was that private property as a concept was not respected, protected beforehand.

Nevertheless: my recommendation is the following: Healthcare, pension, social security insurance, banking, etc should also reduce crime, not only the policing approach.

 

[gyogen2]

Did I mention I work in the field? Excuse me if I am becoming a bit upset, but when you have to look parents in the eye and tell them how and where there child was just found, and then are told you fail at the definition of crime, it is very bothering.

Anyway I think you may be misunderstanding the the point, it is not the effect of crime on the average person, it's the overall impact in the country as a whole. In the mechanic, the impact of crime varies depending on era, fe in the earlier eras the order yield has to be much lower to have an effect as opposed to the later eras.

I hope I didn't sound rude, but I have seen the impact nearly every day for the past 24 years, and I tried strongly to control my response.

 

[gaborpesti]

Sorry, I did not mean to offend you, and my deepest sympathies are to the victims of crime.. I am aware that terrible personal tragedies are caused by criminals. Despite this my point is the following: On strategical scale the impact of crime is negligible nowadays in the developed countries compared to earlier centuries. The trade itself was closed down on whole continents due to lack of safety. And later reestablished when strong empires emerged. (Pax mongolica for example) Populations are highly impacted. Ability for savings are prohibited, in some high crime century, area. Even nowadays it is Africa that is most hindered by crime. Think of Somalia or the efficacy of developmend aids to Africa when this mechanism is defined, not the relatively small differences between US neighbourhoods, or Germany vs US

 

[gyogen2]

It's ok I'm not offended, I am just working an emotional case right now.

In the US the total cost of crime is over a trillion dollars annually(including related infrastructure). The order yield is not so much the impact of crime on the civ, it is more reflective of the populations reaction and tolerance of it. FE, in earlier eras, crime is more prevalent and accepted as part of life, therefore, the effects of it on civ are relative, as the eras progress, pop becomes less tolerant of it, therefore, the effects threshold is less.

I think we are not disagreeing on historical aspect of crime, just a misunderstanding of the game mechanic, which is probably my fault for poor explanation.

 

[gyogen2]

Th concept of the order yield is two fold:

A: It represents the populations attitude and tolerance of crime, and order. As civilizations become more advanced, the society becomes more expectant of protection from crime, up to the point they do not feel part of a "Police State".

B: The level and effects of crime are directly proportional to the level of control and order a government has over a particular region(city) and as a country as a whole. Therefore, in cities where there is less order, crime will be more, the more order, the less crime. Too much order in a particular city, and it's citizens may revolt.

 

[ComradeKristov]

Crime and order are a tricky thing. There is petty interpersonal crime, then there is major interpersonal crime, 'white collar' crime of business professionals, governmental corruption, and mass murders, ect... I think that from a strategic level crime should be represented as corruption ala civilization 3. I would like to see a focus on non extractive inclusive policy branches (Republican and Democratic style policies) reducing crime. Where ever there is a strong republican government with strong controls on power there is much less crime. Dictatorial and extractive policies increasing governmental crime and corruption, and to a larger extent crime in society. But maybe policies that increase crime can help those in power (the player) with certain decisions while republican forms of governance can hinder you.

 

[gyogen2]

Thanks for the ideas. Crime is handled on both a city level and a civilization level. Certain buildings, techs, policies, etc. can have an impact (Gilga is handling the assignment of yield values for those). Crime is also effected by various decisions that can be made in the event system.

On a city level currently the effects are proportional to the level. At a low level(which is relative to era) it's petty, such as the occasional loss of gold etc. At higher levels it can result in murders (loss of pop), arson (loss of building) etc.

On the strategic level, crime can have varying effects. There is corruption, which can result in the loss of income or research f.e., but I am planning on having a wider area of impact. I had thoughts of adding the selling of techs to other civs, the loss of resources, etc. I am still on the coding phase of the system, so if you have any specific suggestions fell free to offer.

and as I said before, the system is completely optional, and can be turned off in setup if anyone doesn't like or want to use it.

 

[ComradeKristov]

If you have a democratic government you should have less crime, but you could have certain events possible.
Protests against your unjust war have sprung up in the capitol.
-Suppress protesters -5% population -3 PP -3 Happiness For that city
-Bribe protest leader -2250 gold revolt ends in 2 turns
-Concede to protesters -war ends immediately

Spies have revealed (one of your generals) is plotting against you.
- Have him assasinated -loose great general
- Bribe his second in command -750 gold
- Do nothing -risk rebellion

Your finance minister has been caught lying about state finance
- Execute him and have his assets seized! +250 gold +2 order
- Cover up his scandal +4 crime -1 PP +2500 gold

I think having certain republican policies protect the average persons property rights v.s. despotic policies would be more extractive from the population. Property rights would reduce crime and increase economic output. Lack of property rights would increase crime reduce the economy but boost the capitol greatly at the expense of outlying cities, also it would greatly increase millitary production as a corrupt leader needs a strong military. Crime should affect if you have a ambassador murdered or something of that sort. I don't think it should deal with small time crime and deal more with systematic crime and how your civilization deals with it.

-my 2 cents

 

[tomtheawesome]

Help! My cities are revolting because i have too much order! How do i reduce order? I have all the crime buildings available i still have above 60 order!