News article: "Civilization 7 makers work with Shawnee to bring sincere representation of the tribe to the game"

[pokiehl]

Civilization 7 makers work with Shawnee to bring sincere representation of the tribe to the game

The chief of the Shawnee Tribe grew up playing video games, including hundreds of hours colonizing a distant planet in the 1999 title Sid Meier’s Alpha Centauri.

apnews.com

Cool article in AP detailing how Firaxis worked with the Shawnee. It's a great read. The ending quote is poignant and shows how much this sort of effort means to them:

Barnes hasn’t had a chance to play the new version of the game yet, but he is already imaging the future he can build virtually, as well as how doing so will inspire other Shawnee gamers. “What I do know is that with the efforts we’re making here today, I expect Shawnee to be spoken in 2500.”

I also think this quote is really telling:

One of the game’s two resident historians, Andrew Johnson, said the studio wanted to make Tecumseh a playable leader, but after reaching out to some academics, “we were told repeatedly, ‘No, this is a really bad idea, and nobody’s going to sign off on this.’”

So Johnson suggested reaching out to Shawnee leaders directly to ask what they think, and how it could help them.

So it seems like academics thought this would be a bad idea, but reaching out to the Shawnee directly worked out well.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

That poignant juxtaposition of Sid Meier's Old Guard-esque quote about being an honor to be included with Dr. Johnson's quote about it being of little value to struggling cultures.

 

[Nikolai II]

Chief's got good taste. SMAC is the best Civ game ever, as we all know.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

That poignant juxtaposition of Sid Meier's Old Guard-esque quote about being an honor to be included with Dr. Johnson's quote about it being of little value to struggling cultures.

I just felt weird saying "hey here's a product we're making and which we hope will make us money" and then not trying to help save the very thing (language, culture) that we wanted to use.

I am not a games person, nor am I a business person. I'm in this to help educate people (and to educate myself) about history and the cultures of the world.

 

[notNamed]

That poignant juxtaposition of Sid Meier's Old Guard-esque quote about being an honor to be included with Dr. Johnson's quote about it being of little value to struggling cultures.

The cold truth behind the marketingese.
While the game gives some terms and voices in Shawnee, the list of languages of the game is thus: "Sid Meier's Civilization VII will feature audio and text localization in English, French, Italian, German, Spanish, Japanese, Korean, Russian, Simplified Chinese, Traditional Chinese. Sid Meier's Civilization VII will feature text-only localization in Portuguese (Brazilian)."

Civilopedia, civ introductions and descriptions, etc written all in Shawnee would be a real tool for language learners of that language. But that never made financial sense, nor is it a realistic project for a language that has no future being used as an everyday language in a community of Anglophones (something even much more developed [for everyday, modern life regarding terms and concepts] and usable language like Irish is completely failing at even with a nation of 5 million and a gigantic economy to back it up... simply because they'd need to force themselves to split with English).
It's already a dead language like Old Church Slavonic or Ecclestial Latin. Important because of a historical legacy to the culture but not one with prospects of being used and expanded by further generations of kids.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I just felt weird saying "hey here's a product we're making and which we hope will make us money" and then not trying to help save the very thing (language, culture) that we wanted to use.

I am not a games person, nor am I a business person. I'm in this to help educate people (and to educate myself) about history and the cultures of the world.

It's good. I find the pragmatic truth of your quote reassuring that 2K is dealing fairly with the Shawnee, and I appreciate that you had the liberty to express it.

"You should feel honored to be included" is very patronizing and weird.

 

[Leyrann]

That poignant juxtaposition of Sid Meier's Old Guard-esque quote about being an honor to be included with Dr. Johnson's quote about it being of little value to struggling cultures.

To be fair, both of those can be true. Something can be a great honor, and yet do absolutely nothing to deal with the issues you're dealing with.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

I agree - if they feel like representation helps their cause, and if they feel like it's an honor, I'm extremely pleased. But we can do more than signal if we have a 2K-sized budget: we can act.

 

[Uberfrog]

An interesting read! It seems that Firaxis have taken a thoughtful approach and I am glad the Shawnee were excited to engage with them.

I am really looking to next week’s livestream on this.

 

[The_J]

I watched the video, very cool to see .

 

[RedCourtJester]

I am betting part of the sensitivity is that the Shawnee could be introduced as DLC with a full three civ pathway all to themselves. And one that quite sensitively portrays their past and prospective relationships with the Mississippians and (I'm betting) the Anishinaabe, respectively. That is a remarkably well-considered inclusion of a Native American grouping of civs, that it is allowed to wholly exist across time, totally separate from America, throughout a game which elsewise is all about civs being overtaken and syncretized.

I think that may be the direction they try to go if they include another Native American tribe. I could see Pueblo/Hohokam -> Apache -> Navajo under Cochise making a fantastic pairing.

 

[Willie5000]

I am betting part of the sensitivity is that the Shawnee could be introduced as DLC with a full three civ pathway all to themselves. And one that quite sensitively portrays their past and prospective relationships with the Mississippians and (I'm betting) the Anishinaabe, respectively. That is a remarkably well-considered inclusion of a Native American grouping of civs, that it is allowed to wholly exist across time, totally separate from America, throughout a game which elsewise is all about civs being overtaken and syncretized.

I think that may be the direction they try to go if they include another Native American tribe. I could see Pueblo/Hohokam -> Apache -> Navajo under Cochise making a fantastic pairing.

My suspicion is the “historic” progression will be Missisipian > Shawnee > something else. Might not be the most realistic but if the Shawnee are preorder content and the Mississippi are (likely) in the base game then it’s probably “close enough” as far as Firaxis is concerned.

 

[Krajzen]

Thank God we have all those progressive Western intellectual elites in big cities who know perfectly how non - Western peoples feel without asking them! How would we access such information otherwise. We cannot just talk to those poor, passive, naive, delicate, fragile, opressed, noble savages, their primeval purity would make them collapse instantly upon facing the white man's evil powers of deceit - some rich white guy in a suit should talk on their behalf.

My favourite totally unconnected anecdote

Spoiler :

A certain horror movie director wanted to make a sequel to the infamous classic of sadistic gore cinema, known as Cannibal Holocaust , preferably employing native Amazon tribe to play the role of cannibals eating white explorers. Facing criticism of offensive colonial stereotypes, he nonetheless actually embarked on a travel to Amazon, actually contacted an Amazonian tribe, who as it turnes out after he offered them the role of actors have actually never seen any movie before. So in order to make them fully aware of the proposal he was going lay before them, he showed them Cannibal Holocaust, the first movie they have ever watched.

The tribe ended up absolutely loving the movie, finding it hilarious and watching it on repeat like a comedy with the entire families having a blast together, and enthusiastically embarked on a task to create a spirirual sequel and play cannibals. Many members of the tribe even had their own ideas for the script and the ways cannibals killed, tortured and ate white explorers in the resulting movie Green Inferno.

 

[moysturfurmer]

Thank God we have all those progressive Western intellectual elites in big cities who know perfectly how non - Western peoples feel without asking them! How would we access such information otherwise. We cannot just talk to those poor, passive, naive, delicate, fragile, opressed, noble savages, their primeval purity would make them collapse instantly upon facing the white man's evil powers of deceit - some rich white guy in a suit should talk on their behalf.

My favourite totally unconnected anecdote

Spoiler :

A certain horror movie director wanted to make a sequel to the infamous classic of sadistic gore cinema, known as Cannibal Holocaust , preferably employing native Amazon tribe to play the role of cannibals eating white explorers. Facing criticism of offensive colonial stereotypes, he nonetheless actually embarked on a travel to Amazon, actually contacted an Amazonian tribe, who as it turnes out after he offered them the role of actors have actually never seen any movie before. So in order to make them fully aware of the proposal he was going lay before them, he showed them Cannibal Holocaust, the first movie they have ever watched.

The tribe ended up absolutely loving the movie, finding it hilarious and watching it on repeat like a comedy with the entire families having a blast together, and enthusiastically embarked on a task to create a spirirual sequel and play cannibals. Many members of the tribe even had their own ideas for the script and the ways cannibals killed, tortured and ate white explorers in the resulting movie Green Inferno.

Am i misunderstanding something or are you building a strawman that doesn’t bear any resemblance to the reality of the video?

 

[Krikkit1]

. We cannot just talk to those poor, passive, naive, delicate, fragile, opressed, noble savages,

That's....what they did... they talked to actual Shawnee (admittedly they talked some academics first, which was probably a mistake given that the game is being made in a country where most of the Shawnee live so it would be easy to talk to them)

 

[Zaarin]

Am i misunderstanding something or are you building a strawman that doesn’t bear any resemblance to the reality of the video?

I'm not Krajzen, but I understood him to be mocking the academics who said, "No, don't contact the indigenes! They wouldn't understand!"

 

[RedCourtJester]

My suspicion is the “historic” progression will be Missisipian > Shawnee > something else. Might not be the most realistic but if the Shawnee are preorder content and the Mississippi are (likely) in the base game then it’s probably “close enough” as far as Firaxis is concerned.

I really just don't share the same suspicion. For one, I think as we see more of the game we will see it is actually the leaders who are helping connect everything together; if all three civs don't follow a reasonable theme or related throughline as represented by that leader, the AI's personality/plausibility really breaks down. And second, I think a single Tecumseh civ connecting Mississippian -> Shawenee -> Anishinaabe may be perhaps the single best Native American pathway they could possibly make in a game like this, and maybe why they would be happy putting in the work because they know it's the first and last Native American civ VII will get.

What I mean by that is that is The Anishinaabe not only allied with Tecumseh in the War of 1812, but also as a modern tribal alliance that has since expaned beyond the Council of Three Fires, most represent his vision for a pan-Native alliance more than any other tribal confederation. They are something Tecumseh would likely be proud to be associated with. The Anishinaabe also thematically work well as a freshwater-lake based culture mechanically alongside the Missisippians and Shawnee, and together the three civs kind of form a "Blue Wall" of Pan-Nativism along the Mississippi and Great Lakes both centering on and splitting the modern American continent, but also by implication acting as a kind of (mechanically pacifist, diplomatic) barrier against American and Canadian expansion. It's really a beautiful wholistic idea.

(Also, by comparison, it seems by my research no other set of three Native American civs really works together. The Haida could feasibly turn into the Tlingit or Salish, but from there don't really have a strongly associated "modern" idea of intertribal unity (or some other idea of modernism) to progress to in modern era. Similarly, if we could justify the Pueblo or Hohokam moving toward the Navajo (the most populous and landed native people), there really aren't any good transitionary civs because the Navajo had really bad historical relationships with the Apache, the Hopi, the Zuni, etc. In fact, part of the reason why the Navajo have so much land is because they kept attacking and shoving out neighboring tribes; that's like the opposite idea of tribal cooperation. The Shawnee -> Anishinaabe seriously is like Civ's one shot at a three-act Native path, in part because Tecumseh is one of the only prominent native figures in (older) colonial history to transcend merely leading his own people against American invasion, but to unite with other tribes.)

 

[Zaarin]

I expect Shawnee > Lakota. The timeframe fits neatly with the Sioux Wars at the end of the 19th century. The Lakota also have a wealth of interesting leader options for future DLC to mine, from obvious choices like Sitting Bull, Red Cloud, and Crazy Horse to non-leader leaders like Zitkala-Ša.

in part because Tecumseh is one of the only prominent native figures in (older) colonial history to transcend merely leading his own people against American invasion, but to unite with other tribes.

Another would be Tecumseh's mentor and predecessor, Joseph Brant, who also created a league of nations in the Old Northwest--though Brant's confederacy was not a union of equals but an association in league with the Mohawk. (On which note, I expect we'll see the Haudenosaunee sooner or later, and I hope Joseph Brant comes with them.)

 

[RedCourtJester]

I expect Shawnee > Lakota. The timeframe fits neatly with the Sioux Wars at the end of the 19th century. The Lakota also have a wealth of interesting leader options for future DLC to mine, from obvious choices like Sitting Bull, Red Cloud, and Crazy Horse to non-leader leaders like Zitkala-Ša.


Another would be Tecumseh's mentor and predecessor, Joseph Brant, who also created a league of nations in the Old Northwest--though Brant's confederacy was not a union of equals but an association in league with the Mohawk. (On which note, I expect we'll see the Haudenosaunee sooner or later, and I hope Joseph Brant comes with them.)

The Oceti Sakowin are probably the second most likely by my predictions. They do have a lot of historical association with and around the Mississippi river, and they too are a Council of Seven Fires (as hinted by the Shawnee unique improvement). I would not be disappointed if we got the Lakota. Okay, maybe just a tad at not getting the Anishinaabe, but the Lakota are a strong civ option by themselves and are one of the few only other modern nations that don't break the Mississippian -> Shawnee continuity.

However, I don't think they work for a Tecumseh narrative as well. I think there is more effort that people think into connecting civs together with leaders than at first blush. I think the reason why we have the Songhai and not Mali is because modern Songhai live in Niger, and therefore an Amina path which leads from Numidia -> Songhai -> Hausa/Niger much more plausibly connects people than Mali -> Songhai (and Numidia just explains why they both built a lot of roads and warred a lot on horses). I think we are going to get Rama V as the Siamese leader because his restoration efforts brought Bangkok to be a kind of modern "Mandala" for the entire SEA region, with the most prominent Mandala cities of that region being Khmer and later the Majapahit. And I think we may be getting a Samoan leader like Nafanua to lead Tonga -> Maori -> Hawaii because that just paints a beautiful picture of Polynesian expansion and their shared cultural heritage. I can make similar arguments for Fumo Liyongo representing Aksum -> Kilwa/Swahili -> Buganda and even Maya -> Inca -> Grand Columbia under Simon Bolivar (or, if we are lucky at launch, Maya -> Aztec -> Mexico under Spear-Thrower Owl or to a lesser extent Benito Juarez).

I think, at least in the near future, there will be just the one Native American three-civ path, and it will be united under the one leader who makes most sense (Tecumseh); I do not think the Lakota or the Anishinaabe will get a second leader for that pathway. I think the Anishinaabe complete Tecumseh's ideas of pan-Native unity better than the Lakota, as well are indeed a better option specifically because, being defined more by their broad appeal as an alliance instead of being led by any particularly "big name" leaders, they do not beg for any particular leader to represent them like the Lakota want for Sitting Bull, etc. Tecumseh leads the Anishinaabe works; Tecumseh leads Lakota...not so much.

This isn't to say that I don't want the Lakota to be a civ, just that I think they don't align with the idea that I think will ultimately be represented by Tecumseh and his civ line. If the Lakota did get in with a leader, I would expect that leader to have their own pathway that doesn't tread on Tecumseh. Same with Joseph Brant, who I think at least stands better chances of ending up in the Anishinaabe in modern era as well. Problem I have with Brant is that I don't think the Iroquois have a solid antiquity civ to progress from, and Beothuk would be stretching in a way Missisippian -> Shawnee didn't have to. I really think Tecumseh's three civs are all we are getting, and that, maybe, at best, we might see the Oceti Skakown and/or Five Civilized Tribes as a second modern spinoff (with no leader) in addition to the Anishisnaabe. Maybe.

 

[Zaarin]

Problem I have with Brant is that I don't think the Iroquois have a solid antiquity civ to progress from

Mississippians, just like the Shawnee. We are talking about a game that has such very historic options as Egypt > Songhai. Put another way, you have much more confidence that historical pathways will make sense, especially on release, than I do, though I hope most at least broadly make sense after a few rounds of DLC. (Though I'm willing to buy Mississippians to Haudenosaunee. We have no clue where the Iroquoian peoples came from; they show up in the Great Lakes around the 12th century. Also at least one Iroquoian people, the Cherokee, practiced a Mississippian lifestyle. The Tuscarora, Meherrin, and Nottaway may have as well, though I don't believe that's the case. If the Haudenosaunee are modern, I'd also happily buy Mississippian > Powhatan > Haudenosaunee...though as much as the Powhatan are actually a top pick for me, I'm not sure they fit well with the Shawnee being Exploration as well--they share a design space and a language family, and I'd rather spread the love around, even if the Algic languages spread from coast to coast.)