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News: BOTM 22 - Starts September 16

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Game of the Month' started by Niklas, Sep 14, 2009.

  1. Airny

    Airny Warlord

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    I think you know what you're talking about karmina.
    But GW or Stonehenge ?
    At least GW is mostly unnecessary because the AI takes empty space so quickly, that Barbs have no space to live in the dark very soon.
    Pyramids for Representation sounds interesting.
     
  2. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

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    In one global highlands test game I started, the AIs had seven cities while I had one and was fighting barbarians.

    I've thought about it and prefer the reasonable chance of winning at immortal to the certainty of defeat at diety. Once I am winning regularly at immortal, then I can try the diety saves. Or even retry game as contender after playing as adventurer. "A live dog is better than a dead lion".

    Tech path question: Beeline bronzeworking (and chop, chop, chop), then go food techs?
    seems best to me but I don't have the patience to try a bunch of test games.
     
  3. Munro

    Munro Deity

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    I tried that tech path in my first test game on the map I posted, but wasn't too impressed with the results. It let me get the first couple of settlers out quickly, but without the other techs to improve the land (and connect roads for trade routes) the extra deity maintenance costs meant it wasn't really that effective. And since it slowed me to alphabet, one of the 3 AI I'd met already had alpha, and I wasn't able to get much in trades either.

    I'm planning to replay the test map a few more times before starting the real game and expect Farming first to give better results. With +1 :) from each of the charismatic trait, monument (and we start with Mysticism) and the gold, our capital has a happy cap of 8. So I suspect that earlier growth and beelining Writing via Agriculture instead should be a stronger approach. I'll post my results here though after I've finished testing them out.

    adrianj: I'd have thought that worker stealing just for the worker would be suicide at this level. However, I'll almost certainly be looking to bribe my two nearest AI neighbours into an early war (and then join on one side) to avoid having either of them DOW on me, to slow them down, to help me build up "shared war" +ve diplo points with my chosen trading partner, and to try to generate some early GG's.

    But if I can steal a few workers in the opening moves, then all the better. :)
     
  4. karmina

    karmina Warlord

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    Stonehenge could be interesting for the extra happiness as charismatic leader. It's very cheap. But generally I prefer worker->warrior->settler->great wall.

    GW really shines at higher levels. You need virtually no army (except for settler protecting) for a long time, and it's nice to have in a defensive war. But the real, outstanding benefit is the early Great Spy. It's worth 3-4 techs. Yep, those monopoly techs you won't get in trade but can steal and then trade to others.
     
  5. Thrallia

    Thrallia Prodigal Staffer GOTM Staff

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    How do you use a Great Spy? I've never played a BtS game long enough to see one. I know there's a couple ways to use it, as usual, but I have no idea what the best way to use it is.
     
  6. karmina

    karmina Warlord

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    An early Great Spy is best used for the 3000 espionage points. Move him into a city of the AI tech leader and click "infiltrate city". This will give you 3k EP versus that civ. Get Alphabet, train one or more spies, and send those into the cities which require the least EP (these can change, so always check the espionage screen). Leave the spy there for 5 turns for the -50% stationary bonus, then steal the tech of your choice. This will cost you some hundred EPs. Don't place more than 1 spy in the same city as this will increase detection chance and iirc decrease mission success chance. Missions are especially cheap if the city contains your state religion and you own the holy city.

    A nice side effect of early 3k EP is that even deity AIs will have invested far, far less EP by that time, which (1) further decreases EP costs and (2) grants you knowledge of research and city visibility of all known civs.
     
  7. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    @karmina. Thanks, interesting advice.

    @airny. I would imagine (without having tested it) that the real benefit is if you can approach AI cities via hills, then having one or two guerilla2/3 gallic warriors embedded in your stack of mostly CR2/3 ones will make your stack much better protected against AI counterattacks. And the 50% withdrawal chance of guerillla3 would be very useful if you need to pick off any strongish AI units (axemen, horse archers, catapults or longbows) outside cities.
     
  8. Munro

    Munro Deity

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    And you get an even higher discount if the AI isn't in your state religion (but your state religion is still present in their city).

    Overall, when stealing from a city that has your state religion you get:
    -15% if you own the holy city
    -25% if the AI does not share your state religion.

    Unusually for civ multiplers, these two actually add together too, so you get the full 40% discount if both apply (instead of 85% * 75% = about 36% discount).

    You can also get espionage discounts for trade routes (20%) and if you have some of your own culture in the city (depends on the amount of culture).
     
  9. hellwitch

    hellwitch Prince

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    At BtS Diety level is easier than in vanila and Warlords. Most of the time it is possible to build 4 cities before all space is gone. Then ofcourse - fight, fight ....

    If somebody is unsure how, what to do on Diety you can read Snaaty tutorial for High lever gaming. The advices there are quite good.
    Too bad i can't try this map on my own. I like Diety on BtS quite much more than in the previous versons of the game.
     
  10. Grifftavian

    Grifftavian Emperor

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    I'll give the Adventurer save a try.

    My plan: Settle in place, bust some fog, starting along the river to the north. Initial build Worker/Worker/Settler/Warrior/Warrior. Bee-line Bronze Working and try and grab a Copper Resource. Agriculture, Fishing, bee-line Pottery, Iron Working. If I'm still alive after that, come up with more plans :rolleyes:
     
  11. mabraham

    mabraham Deity

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    Me too... space with Stalin a full cycle ago.
     
  12. mabraham

    mabraham Deity

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    No, that's not unusual. Bonuses and discounts on the same item are always additive in Civ4, never multiplicative. A forge in your Bureaucracy capital gets you (+50%+25%)=+75%:hammers:, not (+50%*+25%)=+87.5%:hammers:.

    The only way to get multiplicative effects is to combine multpliers at different stages. So again for Bureaucracy capital with an academy, you get +50% on the raw :commerce:, which the slider can convert to :science:, and then another +50% on the :science:. This is an effective +125% on the fraction of your capital's :commerce: that your slider converted to :science:. Harbours and Customs Houses work similarly on your trade routes in concert with the :science:/:gold: multiplier buildings for the same reason.

    (Of course, now someone will cite an exception to my "never", but then I'll learn something, right?)
     
  13. Munro

    Munro Deity

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    That's true. I should have said "espionage multipliers" which are an exception to your "always additive in Civ4, never multiplicative" rule. Presumably because they are discounts, not bonuses. Adding them could mean you'd end up nothing at all (or even less than nothing... ;)).

    The religion discounts add together though (giving you a better deal) which is unique amongst the espionage discounts as far as I know. All the others multiply together. So it's the exception to the exception... :crazyeye:
     
  14. tharg

    tharg Warlord

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    I cannot get BOTM22 to load, it crashes BTS to desktop whilst loading the save game. I can run the HOF mod successfully and start new games on it. I can also not load the BOTM21 world builder file (It just freezes when I start the senario), however I can run the earlier BOTM world builder files.

    I have two computers the same thing happens on both. One a Widows Vista machine and one a Windows XP machine. Exactly the same thing happens.

    I uninstalled BTS and reinstalled it on the Windows XP machine – no change.

    The only thing I can think of is that I have various FFH mods installed on both machines. Although I would have thought uninstalling and reinstalling BTS would have eliminated that problem.
     
  15. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

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    BOTM 20 was the last to use the old HOF mod. Starting from BOTM 21, we're using the new BUFFY mod, available here. Does that solve your problem?
     
  16. tharg

    tharg Warlord

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    Not really.

    I installed BUFFY 3.19.001, I can load the BUFFY 3.19.001 mod and start new games in it. I cannot however load the BOTM22 save game or start the BTO21 senario.

    I don't know anything about BUG, should I find and install that?

    Could FFH have done something that remains after uninstalling and reinstalling BTS.
     
  17. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

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    FFH should not affect anything. BUG is a part of BUFFY and also shouldn't affect anything.

    Just checking, you are patched up to 3.19 right?

    Can you PM me with screenshots of what happens?
     
  18. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    I can't add too much to what Niklas has suggested, but two observations:

    1. Savegame files are often patch- and mod-dependant; however worldbuilder files are plain text files and the format does not change between patches; that's one reason why we make the worldbuilders to past games available but not the savegame files - a worldbuilder file can be opened irrespective of what patch or HOF mod version you have installed, whereas historical savegame files are often incompatible with current patches. If you really are talking about the worldbuilder files when you say you can load pre-BOTM-21 ones but not BOTM 21, then that wouldn't make sense, and if it is true (and assuming you haven't somehow acquired a corrupt version of one of the worldbuilders) that would suggest something seriously wrong with your civ install and that a complete reinstall may be appropriate.
    2. In my experience having Civ crash on loading a BOTM save file will happen if you have the correct HOF mod but haven't patched civ to the correct version required by the HOF mod. So I'm tempted to suggest double-checking that's not the case (although you seem to imply in later posts you've already done that).
     
  19. tharg

    tharg Warlord

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    Hi, thanks for your help.

    It seems to be working now, I think the save file was corrupted. I dowloaded it again and it worked.
     
  20. mart777

    mart777 Warlord

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    It's 11 days left and I haven't played civ for longer time. Maybe I'll make the deadline... Setup looks very interesting.
     

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