News: BOTM 56 - Starts 16 July

You're right - we need a ton of hammers at the start. Definitely settling on one of the plains hills is a must.

I suspect the optimal build/tech path will look something like BW-Fishing->stuff, while growing to size 2, slow-building a worker, then whip+chop a pair of WBs. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

I am really reluctant to settling on a PH this game, as I would lose a fish. I'll probably SIP.

EDIT: I haven't had the time to do any numbers for build/tech path yet.
 
ok, there I go. If my numbers are right (Fish 62 AH 156 BW 187)...

Plan A: Worker first, AH-Fishing-BW
Plan B: Half a warrior then WB asap then Worker, Fishing-AH-BW
Plan C: Half a warrior then WB asap then Worker, Fishing-BW-AH

Plan A works less sea tiles on the first 30 turns, so it gets all 3 techs by T34. Worker is idle for 16 turns after pasturing. The other plans get all 3 techs by T32, with similar developments.

Plan B and Plan C are very similar. Same research. Plan B has the worker idle for 5 turns. Plan C has the worker chopping and mining before pasturing. Plan B gets 15 food more, 1 tree more, 24 hammers less and one mine less than plan C.

I am undecided between them.
 
Plan D is plan ZPV, pop2 before Worker and BW-Fishing-AH

It is worse than Plan C research-wise. Slightly worse in food too. Also 1 less tree. And it forces the worker to chop twice, instead of mining after chopping.
 
Plan E is plan ZPV modified: BW-Fishing-AH, with Worker first.

Worker gets done just 1 turn before BW, the time to get to the forest. Now, if it chops, it is chopped too soon, before Fishing... so mine.

In the end, it is all around inferior to plan C.
 
My limited testing suggested Plan C as well with SIP.

Settling on the plains hill is more powerful in a game where you benefit from getting a worker faster. In this start the fast worker sits idly by for 10+ turns (after the pig pastue).
 
I downloaded the contender file and Zara starts with Ag/Wheel in addition to his normal techs. I'll wait for you to fix the file and reload. I noticed it after SIP and picking my first tech.

cas
 
My limited testing suggested Plan C as well with SIP.

Settling on the plains hill is more powerful in a game where you benefit from getting a worker faster. In this start the fast worker sits idly by for 10+ turns (after the pig pastue).

How disapointing ;). I was expecting for someone to show me my mistakes and new ways of playing the start.
 
I am really reluctant to settling on a PH this game, as I would lose a fish. I'll probably SIP.

I guess our judgement differs on this one. I'll try and write up a very detailed first spoiler so we can compare results.

Your calculations show me that ancient beakers are dearer than I assumed - getting some seafood online early (with Fishing first) is needed to kickstart research as well as growth/production.

However, I almost certainly want to REX before getting a third seafood improved (which takes many turns to pay off compared with a mine) since the map is crowded, and starting on a plains hill makes it so much easier to get the WBs and fogbusters built, not to mention the extra hammer while building the second and third settlers.
 
I guess our judgement differs on this one. I'll try and write up a very detailed first spoiler so we can compare results.

Your calculations show me that ancient beakers are dearer than I assumed - getting some seafood online early (with Fishing first) is needed to kickstart research as well as growth/production.

However, I almost certainly want to REX before getting a third seafood improved (which takes many turns to pay off compared with a mine) since the map is crowded, and starting on a plains hill makes it so much easier to get the WBs and fogbusters built, not to mention the extra hammer while building the second and third settlers.

Great, I'll be careful with my first spoiler too.

I don't think we really disagree, but we have different goals.

We both think that the early game is crucial.
We both think that 2500BC-1000BC development will be faster if the visible resources are shared between 2 cities.

Now, I am playing for Culture. If I share resources in a non-undoable way (like moving and losing a fish for the capital forever), and if then I get a perfect development of my civ (9 cities, all of them good, peace, etc, etc), then I will have a good capital going for Legendary instead of having a superb capital going for Legendary. This will have a big impact on my finish date.

On the other hand, if I leave all these resources for the capital and then I am unable to get my civ correctly developped (stucked at 2 cities, etc...), then I will be in a hard position, much worse than if I had shared resources.

I am confident in my strengths and I am aiming for an Award, so I will take the risk.



I think that people aiming for fastest spaceship should do the same, as a superb capital is crucial for this victory condition too.
I consider that people going for fastest conquest should share resources climbing to a PH instead, as a superb capital won't even have the time to get completely developped.

Does this all make sense?
 
Great, I'll be careful with my first spoiler too.

I don't think we really disagree, but we have different goals.

We both think that the early game is crucial.
We both think that 2500BC-1000BC development will be faster if the visible resources are shared between 2 cities.

Now, I am playing for Culture. If I share resources in a non-undoable way (like moving and losing a fish for the capital forever), and if then I get a perfect development of my civ (9 cities, all of them good, peace, etc, etc), then I will have a good capital going for Legendary instead of having a superb capital going for Legendary. This will have a big impact on my finish date.

On the other hand, if I leave all these resources for the capital and then I am unable to get my civ correctly developped (stucked at 2 cities, etc...), then I will be in a hard position, much worse than if I had shared resources.

I am confident in my strengths and I am aiming for an Award, so I will take the risk.



I think that people aiming for fastest spaceship should do the same, as a superb capital is crucial for this victory condition too.
I consider that people going for fastest conquest should share resources climbing to a PH instead, as a superb capital won't even have the time to get completely developped.

Does this all make sense?

You're definitely right for Culture - you need everything possible piled into your capital, so you really don't want to sacrifice the forests and extra fish unless the scout shows some other food source.
For Space I'm not sure - the capital is only really cruicial for getting yourself an empire and researching up to the power techs (corporations and/or civics, and assembly line, etc) as quickly as possible. How much does having three food resources instead of four hurt towards the end of that process? You have to rely more on outside cities to generate the odd GP, but also you get the outside cities a little earlier, so I don't know how it balances out.
 
I downloaded the contender file and Zara starts with Ag/Wheel in addition to his normal techs. I'll wait for you to fix the file and reload. I noticed it after SIP and picking my first tech.

cas

I noticed this and so before I did anything else I checked the science advisor. It's not fixed yet. I immediately saved and exited without having moved any unit. Please advise on the correct procedure.
by default I wait until I see something official from the Gotm deities.
BTW, how many have already started playing without noticing this? Is it more fair to let us use this save or to have all download the fixed save?
 
As cas has pointed out, it seems that I accidentally gave the player a couple of extra techs at the start of the game in the contender file. Please consider this as an extra bonus. You're still playing the same game as everyone else.

I'm currently on my lunchbreak at work, so can't check the adventurer or challenger files, to see if they have the same additional techs, but based on my knowledge of how I prepared the files, I'm fairly sure they will do. If anyone wants absolute certain confirmation before they start playing challenger or adventurer, you should hold off until this evening when I'm able to check.
 
I'm :cool: with that. Just wanted to be sure this is the save we are supposed to have. Better safe than disqualified.
 
No problem. Given the situation, you did the right thing by waiting and checking here. But on the whole, we're not going to change a game once it's released unless there's no other sensible option, because of the need to have everyone playing the same game.

One other point: Do make sure when you continue the game, you do so from your latest save - don't start replaying it from the start file - because that would flag your game up as a replayed one, and so could disqualify it.
 
Oh my, having The Wheel makes the Worker in some of the scenarios I've compared "not so idle anymore".

Plan B or Plan C now?
 
plan c still wins for me.
i think delaying ah even further could pay off, as it is 6 food only. The seafood gives food and commerce. i want a lighthouse (which will give only 1 less food than working the pigs), then maybe the GLH.
i want to sip, fishing-bw-sailing
 
I guess I need to extend my analysis to the point where both plans have their pigs improved, then compare in more similar terms.
I am unsure about the value of that analysis, as we are not very likely to stay at 1 city for so long.
Moreover, what the Scout finds in the first few turns can have an influence on the decision.

So I will first download and open the save, play up to the decision point between Plan B and Plan C and only then I will extend any analysis, if needed.

Good luck everybody, see you in the spoilers!
 
One other point: Do make sure when you continue the game, you do so from your latest save - don't start replaying it from the start file - because that would flag your game up as a replayed one, and so could disqualify it.

Yes, it's a lesson for me from BOTM 55 submission.
 
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