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News: BOTM 58 - Starts 16 September

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Game of the Month' started by DynamicSpirit, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    I'm not great at picking sites but I've read several Deity players recommend packing cities more closely together. With all those little lakes giving 3 food with a lighthouse on a coastal site I worry that we'll have too much food with such a low initial-to-midterm happy cap. Would it be better to, for example, settle 2 cities near site#3 (NE and 2 or 3 tiles west??). I'd love to hear the real Deity players discuss the pros and cons of prioritizing Sailing/lighthouses (and GLH?), immediate food and resources within the initial 9 tiles vs within the next ring of the BFC, etc.

    I'd say you're right to go for cities with silver and gold before #6, Con63. Food is great but the early happiness and commerce might be more valuable.
     
  2. Jastrow

    Jastrow Deity

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    Comparing my tentative dot map to Conquistodor's above:

    For location:

    -I agree on cities 1, 5.
    -2, I move 1S onto the spice.
    -6 I move 1SW, picking up the horses, and sharring a spice (which I will likely cottage) with the capital.
    -3 I move 1E, sharing a few more cottages to be with the capital.
    -4 moves 1 SE to get fish in the first ring.
    -7 goes 1E of stone
    -8 picks up the SE fish, likely on island of the coast, put possibly on the mainland depending on what I see.

    I think this arrangement allows a bit more tile sharing for cottaging, and also lowers distance maintanance.

    I am also thinking of putting Maori in the capital BTW.

    As for settling order...

    Capital, 2,3,6,5,7,4,8.

    On barbs....

    Capital
    +NW of rice
    +Cow
    +2N of silver
    +1W or Iron
    +1SW of gold

    Cost 5 units, and is perfect fog bust.

    +2S of gold
    +1E of iron
    +2N of crab
    + horses

    saves one unit, but leaves about 6 sqaures unbusted.

    Can anyone find better?
     
  3. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    Units guide is mistaken then :p.

    In vanilla, Huayna Capac was aggressive, so quechuas automatically had combat 1 by virtue of that trait. I would guess that when Huayna was changed from aggressive to industrious in BtS, Firaxis added combat 1 as an intrinsic characteristic of quechuas so as not to weaken them.

    No problem. After you lose your job, you'll have so much more time to enjoy GOTMs... :lol:
     
  4. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    I tried to make sure that barbs know archery, in order to make sure this was a standard deity game. However, doing that is quite fiddly and often doesn't seem to work. So you should assume the answer is (c).
     
  5. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    Eh, six of one, half dozen of the other. The tile sharing/maintenance benefits are good, but I'm not wild about moving city#2 off the coast--you lose the possibility of extra lake food from a lighthouse. I'd probably also try to get the gold hooked up quicker. What's the starting happy cap for a Deity capital?

    And then there's the tech path. :mischief: Fishing first? Do we try for Sailing/GLH?
     
  6. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    A little scary scary, that's how silly wonder dates can be on Deity :D

    Spoiler :
     
  7. srad

    srad King

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    Heidelberg, Germany
    Isolated?
    I generated a few islands maps with one larger island per player and it looks like that we could be isolated until Optics but not necessarily.

    Wonders?
    What do you think about GLH vs Oracle beeline? I tend to go for GLH because we can settle islands for a good bonus on trade routes. And all cities will be coastal.


    Grand strategy
    As I lack Deity experience ... what could be the grand strategy for a conq / dom vicotry (try :D )? Mylene (as I know the Deities fear you as opponent), can you share some thoughts?

    Below Deity I don't research education and build Oxford but with Stone and an Ind leader on Deity I'm unsure.
    If we don't have foreign traderoutes my guess is that Astronomy is the first goal. Then Education and than Military Tradition?

    Not isolated then Education first?
     
  8. Jastrow

    Jastrow Deity

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    Yes, I noticed that I was moving 1 off the coast just after I posted. I still like my version better if we do NOT get the G-lighthouse. If we can get it however, then I think I would prefer the coast spot. Having said that, I can move that single city 1W without hurting anything about the rest of my configuration.

    For happy... I beleive that in BTs (as opposed to vanilla and WL) that happy caps are level independent above noble.

    If I am not mixin up versions, this means we start with 5 Happy cap (assuming Mil. Police), and will add one for the early silver. That is enough to run the 4 great tiles in the capital, and have two specialist to staff the library, so I am not too worried about getting Gold ultra early.

    I think fishing first for sure... I am debatting sailing and Mine/BW second, since chops/whip would help production.

    Problem is that I am NOT a deity player, so I probably will want to test a few starts out before commiting to a plan. I need the best start possible to have even a hope of a chance.
     
  9. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Sure @Srad, let's look at Oracle.
    What would we want? MC? That should be too risky, besides PH we need fishing, mining, BW and Pottery and that's a lot. Aesthetics..very good with marble. CoL..we are not SPI or PHI and happy res. are available, not sure i see much value.

    So it'd be Aest. for me, but Oracle competes with GLH.
    Very strong, even if we get no AI trade routes. Islands are fine.
    We need fishing anyways, sailing (very good) and masonry. I'd say that looks more tempting than Oracle ~~

    Wonders will be needed, cos no cottage land.
    Each of them means gambling a bit, pick your doom ;)

    Grand strategy, i like cannons more on islands. My Curis cannot roam freely, pfff :(
    And you will want chemistry ;)
    I know zip about culture or similar wins :D
     
  10. Greeder

    Greeder Warlord

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    Here is test map guys:
    http://www.darkeden.priv.pl/html/botm58testgame.CivBeyondSwordSave
    I hope I have all hills/forrests/plans/tundras etc. correct.

    Wonders dates are just crazy!! In one of my test games Oracle was 1720 BC! If you are going to fogbust much (5 quechuas) any wonder is out of question. If you are not going to fogbust, will you survive?!? I'll try GLH in my next test game.
     
  11. Mastiff_of_Ar

    Mastiff_of_Ar In his Element

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    How do quechuas stack up as defenders against the barb archers?

    And, since I'm not a deity player, how fast do you need to get city #2 going. Quech > Settler build start?
     
  12. srad

    srad King

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    @Mylene

    Oh yeah, cannons ... I remember that I used them years ago ;), long and tedious wars but almost without loosing troops :D.

    Slowly a picture starts to shape in my mind. Deity is a level where going for liberalism is important. So Education (Oxford), Liberalism and probably Sushi for endless whipping power will be some of the big milestones.

    And early techs? Currency first, then MC (cheap forges, happiness, triemes) and then Literature?
     
  13. Jastrow

    Jastrow Deity

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    My first try of the test game (Thanks Greeder!!!) I lost the Great Lighthouse in 1680. What is a safe date for Deity (does it even exist)? For what its worth, Oracle had not dropped yet, but I was not planning to try for it.


    Edit: I just tried a second try. This time, I would have gotten the GL in 1760 BC, but it was stolen in 1840!!! I am starting to think it is impossible to safely get it!
     
  14. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    I think 3960BC is a pretty safe date for the Oracle. If you can build it before then, you should guarantee to beat any AIs.
     
  15. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Since I am not admin and can't troll without consequences, I can tell you I find 1900BC very safe date. But 1760BC is still ok.

    You can see demographics on T1 to estimate how many AIs start coastal. The lesser the number of coastal AIs, the higher the chance to get GLH. But if there is coastal August Caesar on the map, he'll get it first no matter what. Luckily, there are 50 other leaders.
     
  16. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    In fact, although Lib is a great boost and advantage, I have won some deity games without it and ZZZ won legions of games without it. Of course, Lib will help greatly to be competitive on dates; for instance Mylene admitted in her last BOTM the late oracle shot helped her to sustain decent tech parity, otherwise she would be overwhelmed by surrounding AI's.
    Deity is a terrible difficulty level in terms of how environment has greater impact because the AI develops so fast that we don't have the decent resources yet to carve our own influence. And deities AI with random behaviours will bring extreme differences.

    Nonetheless, if most AI's are separated on their own islands, then we'll likely see more deterministic pattern in expansion and power balance...depending how evil Mr. DS is.

    As regards wonders, people can do zilch! You have to accept as part of the contract that deity wonders are often risk/reward tactics. And losing oracle or GLH will definitely impede competitiveness, but not necessarily destroy all chances to win. Especially on an island without need to compete for lands!

    Since most players here agree their are more or less used to deity (so I am), think win at all cost and not necessarily efficiency. And little losses are not complete losses.

    @Mylene
    Yeah, I had mostly a similar idea about cannons, but I wonder if some cute mid-wars could be done. :)
     
  17. Mastiff_of_Ar

    Mastiff_of_Ar In his Element

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    Thanks, man! :goodjob:

    On the test map I always missed Buddhism, but got Poly if I went right for it. What are the chances in the real game?
     
  18. WelshGandalf

    WelshGandalf King

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    Think I'll try for GLH and quit if I don't get it :p

    How would you go for it? How many cities (if any) would you settle before building it? What techs would you go for... BW would help built it but it's a lot of extra turns after fishing/sailing/masonry.
     
  19. jesusin

    jesusin Ant GOTM Staff

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    Thank you for the test map, Greeder!


    For someone not planning to settle the pigs soon, ignoring AH and mining the sheep may be a good idea. That would help with WB production and WW production.


    You are right, that's the way it works.

    5 units to fogbust, as suggested above, looks excessive to me. In my book a settled settler fogbusts much better than a unit.





    Regarding religions, I wouldn't recommend going for it unless it is really crucial to your strategy (like going for a cultural victory, for example). In my tests (start game, research something else and then take notes on religion dates, Buddhism before T11 is failure, Hinduism before T14 is failure) I would have had success 40% of the times both for Buddhism and for Hinduism.
     
  20. Jastrow

    Jastrow Deity

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    Just to be clear, I was not suggesting using the 5 unit fog-bust plan. I was just describing what perfect fog-busting would be, as an excercise.

    I pesonally am planning on using 2 fog busting Quench, combined with cultur borders, and hoping to deal with the 1 or 2 barbs which will span inbetween.
     

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