News: GOTM107 Pre-Game Discussion; Saves Available!

[civ_steve]

GOTM 107 Pre-Game Discussion!

Please Note: This is the Civ3 PTW Game of the Month. It MUST be played using version 1.27f of Civ3 PTW, the last version. If you installed Civ3 Complete, the default game executable is Civ3 Conquests, but you do have access to the Civ3 PTW executable. You may have to navigate into the Civ3PTW directory to start it.



Time for our high difficulty game - Deity level as Persia! Lots of players like the Persian's more powerful swordsman, but will it be enough to help you chop down the 7 Deity AI in your way? Good Luck!

The saves are available >>here<< right now, Sep. 26th. You will have a month and a week to play it.


Civilization: Persia
Rivals: 7 preset
Barbarians: Raging
Difficulty: Deity
Land Form: Pangaea, 70% ocean, Standard map.
Geology: 4 billion years old, Wet, Warm






Conquest-Class Bonuses:

1. Free Pottery AND The Wheel
2. Extra 100 Gold
3. 4 Free Spearmen
4. Bonus Luxury Nearby

Open-Class Bonuses:

1. Bonus Luxury Nearby

Predator-Class Challenges:

1. No Bonus Luxury
2. No Bronze-Working
3. AI get 4 more Bonus Unit Support (20, instead of 16)

A reminder: do not post any game information to this thread after you have downloaded the save file. Absolutely no spoiler information for this or any GOTM is to be posted in this thread!

 

[Lanzelot]

Oh, I hate these floodplain starts, they are so difficult play... What do the excelsheet experts have to say about this? Probably some kind of difficult-to-micromanage 6-turn combo?!

Lanzelot

 

[Più Freddo]

What do the excelsheet experts have to say about this?

Difficult to say, since only FPs are visible. The Forests in the west, the Grass in the north, if that is fresh water... But is would seem unnecessary to build a Granary. One could use 4, 5, 7 or 10 fpt (under Republic) surplus corresponding to 10-turn, 8-turn or 6-turn Settler factories.

 

[templar_x]

Looks challenging. I totally forgot that the quarterly difficult game is up.

@ Megalou - what do you think about making the Deity game decide? It is very likely you overtake me anyway, but we could stylize this like a highnoon showdown.

And as far as I remember the challenged one has the right to choose the weapon, no? I would say open class, though, since I know how much you love luxes.

templar_x

 

[templar_x]

Re the start:

This looks better than most flood plains starts to me. There are those forests.

So I might differ from Piu's plan to abstain from a granary. There should be enough shields to make the gran worth it for the number of settlers that could be built with it.
However, this being Deity, there are two assumptions to this strategy that could go awfully wrong: first, there needs to be some room to expand without AIs snatching all the space from me. second, barbs are a serious issue on this level.

I will have to think about that a bit more.

templar_x

 

[Megalou]

@ Megalou - what do you think about making the Deity game decide? It is very likely you overtake me anyway, but we could stylize this like a highnoon showdown.

And as far as I remember the challenged one has the right to choose the weapon, no? I would say open class, though, since I know how much you love luxes.

templar_x

I have already gotten quite far in the parallel game, COTM 76. So, letting this game decide completely will hinge on me not submitting COTM 76 despite the effort. I feel reluctant about doing that but will give it a thought. I had also forgotten about the quarterly high difficulty game. Otherwise, it would have been a good plan to do as you suggest. It would be nerve-racking since deity games may well be lost outright (or won by a dreary, almost humiliating histographic victory,) leaving one with crumbs for the GPR. Bearing that in mind, I think predator would be even more exciting. I'll choose what you choose, since I expect you will go ahead and play regardless of what I decide to do with my cowardly backup game.

 

[templar_x]

no, i won´t play and even have not downloaded the save yet, so that we can agree on the same one.

i did not dare to suggest playing predator, but i would be all in for it.

so i´ll be waiting whether the magalosaur or the cowardosaur will get the upper hand in your inner battle.

templar_x

ps: i am close to finishing cotm76, but will halt it now and am ready to throw it away.

 

[Raliuven]

I've been thinking about the starting location. I've never played Deity before, so I am probably in for a good kick to the rear. But I was thinking a worker first gambit with a granary. But to make a 4 turn settler factory in despotism I think that several things need to be true - 1) the grass tile to the east must be a BG 2) Both forests must be cleared (shield deposited for the granary?) and they must be revealed as BG 3) need to mine one of the hills. That should give a +5fpt, +7spt start. Could do with only 2 BG for a 6-7 split with 4 shields picked up on growth with a mined hill.

I wouldn't even think this with a Non-Industrious Civ, but an Industrious Civi is looking at about 46 worker turns (depending on movement) if I calculated correctly (that includes improving the FP tiles too). With an early worker, figure it will take about 29-30 turns to complete from start? Maybe a bit more if I need the mined hill?

Of course if there is only 1 BG, or none, then the plan fails and I crash and burn. Backup plan for my shine new granary is to pop-rush a lot and keep the population low until I recover and get out of despotism so that a 4-turner will work?

Only I am very, very afraid of the barbarians. I’ll have to work in the shield count to see if I can squeeze out a scout and few warriors before bringing in the forest shields for the granary; maybe finish the granary with a pop-rush to get it out of the way earlier?

Does this sound like suicide?

 

[Lanzelot]

Could do with only 2 BG for a 6-7 split with 4 shields picked up on growth with a mined hill.

I don't see, how the 4-turner with 2BGs is supposed to work?! I think 3 BGs are necessary:
size 5.5: 5s + 2s on growth (3 irrigated FP, 2 mined BG, mined hill on growth)
size 6: 7s (3 irrigated FP, 3 mined BG)
size 6.5: 7s
size 7: 7s + 2s on growth

And can we really count on 3 BGs? If we move the settler 1NE, a fourth grassland tile comes into the city radius, but even 3 out of 4 being BG is quite unlikely. We could argue "this is Deity and certainly civ_steve, being a nice guy, has given us the necessary resources for a 4-turner, so lets move NE and chop those two forests"... But can you call this "sound strategic thinking"?? I think not, because in a non-GOTM game no one would play that way. The risk is just too high.

Nevertheless I would go for an early granary as well: we need lots of warriors for barb control, and I believe the granary is necessary for the 6-turner combo. And even if there's not much room to expand, the granary will later be useful for cranking out 2-turn workers, and we may be needing lots of workers for mining the hills.

I don't like pop-rushing. I read cracker's analysis of the three different strategies to play that floodplain start, and the pop-rush variant did not convince me at all. I think the population is best used for workers and settlers. Granary should be fast enough by working the two forests for a while and in the end chopping them.

 

[Raliuven]

Hmmm. You're right (of course). My count was off. Not sure why I thought I had that extra shield for the 6-7 split. Back to basic arithmatic for me! No 4 turn factory in despotism no matter how it turns out.

Maybe I'm reading the map wrong, but I don't see a 4th grassland tile on growth - I count three? Two with forest and one by the fresh water. Otherwise it looks like hills?

Well, my desire to play the start this way does have other reasoning, though I take you point. I'm sure civ_steve is a nice guy, even if I have never actually witnessed it (I am still in pain over GOTM106 - oh yeah, and every other GOTM I've played so far . . .). My thought was that the weakness here is total lack of flat green tiles. Without clearing the forest to gain the GL tiles - bonus or otherwise, any other move reduces the effectiveness of the flood plains.

A forest chop, road and mine of the green tiles will take 10 turns for an industrious worker. To road and mine a hill costs 9 turns. Forest chopping brings in 20 shields and opens up the grass tiles, bonus or not, for developement - then it is possible to capitalize off the growth offered by the FP. There is a down payment of roading one hill on the way north - but that is a hill I would chose to improve anyway for the pick up on the way back - or at least it is a decent choice that fits the plan. Add one more mined hill and a 5 turn settler factory becomes possible (with a granary). Freeze growth for one round picking up the hills, then go 4 turns like normal. This shoud work but it would require that at least 1 of the 3 tiles is a bonus grassland - much better odds? Later the city would be primed for a 4 turn settler factory in republic or monarchy.

I'm not much for pop-rushing either. I just don't know what to do with these high food/low shield cities. I thinik the QSC results will be very interesting to look at this time.

 

[Più Freddo]

4 shields picked up on growth with a mined hill

Please, don't do that! Mine the Desert tile for use on growth.

 

[Lanzelot]

Please, don't do that! Mine the Desert tile for use on growth.

This thought never occurred to me! When I first read it, I thought "yes of course, saves some worker turns".

However, after thinking a bit more about it, I don't find it that obvious any more. Are you sure this will really pay off in the long run? Once we are out of Despotism, we will need to work a couple of mined hills anyway to get some production going. (One floodplain and two hills give 6f and 6s, which is equivalent to three BGs...) And the mined desert will then no longer be needed. So why not invest those 4 extra worker turns for the hill (3 more turns for the mine and 1 more for the road) and hope it will pay off later when we are out of despotism?

 

[templar_x]

@ Lanzelot - i cannot see how your SF with 3 BG would work, either. starting on 5,5 - with +5fpt - you would have only 3 turns to collect the shields for the settler.

templar_x

 

[Lanzelot]

Hmm, have never tried it, but can't you run at 7 for one turn and drop back to 5 with 5 food in the bin?!

 

[Lanzelot]

Maybe I'm reading the map wrong, but I don't see a 4th grassland tile on growth - I count three? Two with forest and one by the fresh water.

There is a grassland at 1N-2NE, which will slide into the fat cross, if you move the settler 1NE.

 

[templar_x]

Hmm, have never tried it, but can't you run at 7 for one turn and drop back to 5 with 5 food in the bin?!

i do not think so. if you change back from the "large bin" to the "small bin", it will be always empty. that is, if i remember correctly.

please correct me if i am wrong.

templar_x

 

[Raliuven]

Please, don't do that! Mine the Desert tile for use on growth.

Point taken, hadn't thought of that. But the desert is not on my way to anywhere (yet). I have to cross and road a hill to get to the GL & forests anyway, so adding a mine only adds 3 extra turns. Moving to the desert tile for the sole purpose of a pickup tile would be 6 turns. My head hurts.

My thoughts are revolving around how to make this work as a 5 turn settler factory. Considering the work needed, I wouldn't even think about this with a non-industrious civ.

I was going to found in place. That means I need to uncover or pick up one BG from the 3 available GL at start. Gold looks like it won't be much of a problem, not sure how long we'll be in despotism, but I usually lag in that area. Sigh.

I think I can make a five turn settler factory, but I will need a laundry list of things. I need 3 fp irrigated/roaded. I need all three green tiles mined and roaded - hopefully at least 1 is a BG. I need 3 hills mined and roaded. That is the only way I can make the math work (assuming my remedial math course helped). A mined desert would take away +1fpt that I need in the calcuations, I can only gain that by mining hills. Total work needed is 64 worker turns, plus moves (9 tiles), so 73 turns. With an early worker, project it will be done in 40-41 turns. There will be a lot of tile swapping, so it would be critical to place other cities nearby to benefit from those improved tiles when the SF is not.

With working FP (by turn 15), population is not the problem - sheilds are. Pop-rush the Granary after the forest chop? Kick out a settler ASAP after that, maybe an extra worker to assist or build outward and a few other units until the SF is ready. The capital should produce 8-10 cities by 1000BC, even stuck in despotism.

IF there are more BG, then things are marginally easier.

Worries - Barbarians and nearby civs. Need a scout and a few warriors fairly quick. How to balance it all? On a large map with 8 civs, we can't be too far apart.

 

[Megalou]

i do not think so. if you change back from the "large bin" to the "small bin", it will be always empty. that is, if i remember correctly.

I can corroborate that.

@Raliuven, If you feel spooked by that ultra-early granary it might be a good instinct. 50 shield warriors are not my cup of tea either. I'm referring to the barbs. I usually don't worry about AI warriors strolling into the capital in the early stages, even though it does happen. (If it happens to me, I will submit my COTM 76, t_x. Call me a bad loser.)

 

[templar_x]

Believe me, in this Case i will! :-]

 

[Più Freddo]

the mined desert will then no longer be needed

Why not? As long as the city is growing, it can be used at growth. When the city stops growing, you need it because it's there and it's better than the flood plains. And at some point in between, it can be used in micro-management.