News Item: In Split Decision, Court Backs Affirmative Action
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Ohwell
Deity
Affirmative Action is equal to apartheid in my eyes. I don't think that being black, hispanic, asian, arab, or native american should get you a job unless you are the best qualified. Race should not matter.
Greadius
:yeah:
Best qualified for what? Standardized tests?
Pontiuth Pilate
Republican Jesus!
I think we all agree that in a perfect world affirmative action would not be necessary.
Mrogreturns
The Ghost Who Posts
Affirmative action is one of those things about which I can never really make up my mind.
In general I would agree that the best qualified person should get the job- the problem is that not everyone gets the opportunity to become the best qualified.
On the other hand, why should someone who is well qualified miss out in favour of someone less qualified?
I guess it comes back to PP`s comment on the general lack of perfection with which we run our affairs.
In general I would agree that the best qualified person should get the job- the problem is that not everyone gets the opportunity to become the best qualified.
On the other hand, why should someone who is well qualified miss out in favour of someone less qualified?
I guess it comes back to PP`s comment on the general lack of perfection with which we run our affairs.
Archer 007
Rebirth
The thing is that the system rewards you for being a minority, even if you had advandages. Surely a poor white student should have less opportunities, and therefore need more "action", then a wealthy African-American student.
allhailIndia
Deity
Let me tell you a bit about India's experience with Affarmative action.
Since the '50's the govts' policy was to reserve seats for the students of backward communities and castes in colleges. THis seemed fine since it was supposed to be withdrawn in 15 years. But of course the whole issue of reservations was grossly politicised and there seem to be reservations at every level of Indian education. What happened??
Simply put, reservations awarded mediocrity. IT did'nt matter if you did not have enough marks to get into the college, but if you were from X community, it's OK. Consequently, those who graduated from colleges, now demanded jobs and with India's socialist tendencies then, (the govt. provided most of the jobs), jobs started being reserved for them. Seeing as to how easy life can be if you were from even a marginally backward community, almost every other caste wanted to be labelled backward!!
This finally led to the fiasco of the Mandal Commission whose reccommendations, when followed by the V.P.Singh govt. nearly tore apart the fabric of Indian society.
Fortunately, privatization and reforms finally took place and the truly meritorious students could now look forward to a good job in the previously non-existent private sector. However, the issue of reservations in colleges still remains and some fringe lunatics are now calling for reservations in the private sector.
My suggestion to the Affrican American community would be, there is no such thing as a free lunch. All affirmative action does is promote mediocrity and laziness and I am sure that is not how the African American community wants to be looked at.
Since the '50's the govts' policy was to reserve seats for the students of backward communities and castes in colleges. THis seemed fine since it was supposed to be withdrawn in 15 years. But of course the whole issue of reservations was grossly politicised and there seem to be reservations at every level of Indian education. What happened??
Simply put, reservations awarded mediocrity. IT did'nt matter if you did not have enough marks to get into the college, but if you were from X community, it's OK. Consequently, those who graduated from colleges, now demanded jobs and with India's socialist tendencies then, (the govt. provided most of the jobs), jobs started being reserved for them. Seeing as to how easy life can be if you were from even a marginally backward community, almost every other caste wanted to be labelled backward!!
This finally led to the fiasco of the Mandal Commission whose reccommendations, when followed by the V.P.Singh govt. nearly tore apart the fabric of Indian society.
Fortunately, privatization and reforms finally took place and the truly meritorious students could now look forward to a good job in the previously non-existent private sector. However, the issue of reservations in colleges still remains and some fringe lunatics are now calling for reservations in the private sector.
My suggestion to the Affrican American community would be, there is no such thing as a free lunch. All affirmative action does is promote mediocrity and laziness and I am sure that is not how the African American community wants to be looked at.
aneeshm
Deity
I , being an Indian , concur with allhail's views . Reputed Government colleges have had to undergo a general lowering of their academic standards because some small - time polotician wanted the support of X community in the upcoming elections .
And it never stops there , either . Minority communities are given free electricity/power at the expense of honest taxpayers , when others , who pay their power bills have to suffer power cuts for for three to five hours a day . Even the stinking rich among these "economically backward" communities gain the same benifits , and are exempted from paying taxes . When this goes to a state-wide level , elections are decided not by who is the best candidate , but by the one who promises the most perks to the most minorities , all the while ensuring that they remain backward , and keep the candidate in power . Some are even proposing reserving a quota for the economically backward sections of the upper castes .
And it doesn't stop there , either . People who are not qualified to take up certain professions in the vital services (doctors , for example ) are given degrees , even if they get 5 % total . And these same people are employed in government hospitals . I shudder to think what their patients must undergo . That is why very few people now trust national health services , and why anyone who can afford it goes to private practitioners (spelling ?) .
My advice is to nip this in the bud , or it might have very severe consequences later .
And it never stops there , either . Minority communities are given free electricity/power at the expense of honest taxpayers , when others , who pay their power bills have to suffer power cuts for for three to five hours a day . Even the stinking rich among these "economically backward" communities gain the same benifits , and are exempted from paying taxes . When this goes to a state-wide level , elections are decided not by who is the best candidate , but by the one who promises the most perks to the most minorities , all the while ensuring that they remain backward , and keep the candidate in power . Some are even proposing reserving a quota for the economically backward sections of the upper castes .
And it doesn't stop there , either . People who are not qualified to take up certain professions in the vital services (doctors , for example ) are given degrees , even if they get 5 % total . And these same people are employed in government hospitals . I shudder to think what their patients must undergo . That is why very few people now trust national health services , and why anyone who can afford it goes to private practitioners (spelling ?) .
My advice is to nip this in the bud , or it might have very severe consequences later .
Plexus
Architeuthidae puericomedentis
Affirmative Action is thought to promote 'equality', it is so hypocritical. Filling 'quotas' of minority groups in positions may exclude the better qualified. And giving people stuff just because they are a minority is just wrong.
ravensfire
Member of the Opposition
Here's another question to answer - what is the problem that affirmative action is supposed to correct?
From that, does AA correct that problem (ignoring if it creates new problems or not)? Is it a short term or long term solution.
-- Ravensfire
From that, does AA correct that problem (ignoring if it creates new problems or not)? Is it a short term or long term solution.
-- Ravensfire
cgannon64
BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!
That's too bad. I've long been against affirmative action, unless it gives the benefits not based on race, but based on quality of schools and socio-economic status. The poor are the real ones who need it.
Affirmative Action is racist in itself by assuming that all blacks need help to be on the same level of whites.
Affirmative Action is racist in itself by assuming that all blacks need help to be on the same level of whites.
thestonesfan
A Client of Ron Kuby
It's one of those things I just don't understand. Why do people want entitlements of any kind? Especially ones they have such a dubious claim on?
ravensfire
Member of the Opposition
thestonesfan,
You're generalizing a bit there. While my experience is limited, many of the individuals I know that qualify as an under-represented group (which essentially means anyone who is not a caucasian male) don't really like AA.
However, they most particularly don't like the reason for AA. cgannon made a point that I heard in several interviews - that there is a disperity in the opportunities presented to various socio-economic groups. American society traditionaly points to education as the key to social advancement - that learning present opportunities not otherwise available.
Yet there is a tremendous gap in the funding available to students, especially rural vs suburban vs urban environments. As a white male growing up in a suburban neighborhood, with friends in both rural Missouri and urban Missouri, there isn't a question that my exposure to technology was greater, and the selection of courses was signifcantly higher. I took calculus in High School - my cousin in rural Missoui could take nothing higher than pre-calc. Several of my courses had computer lab components, let alone the programming courses I was offered. My friend in the city - the school had a handful of computers, total.
I think the problem is that there is an implicit assumption in the theory of social advancement that the playing field, while not totally level, isn't tilted too badly. Right now - it's bad and getting worse. The ability of schools in non-weathly areas to maintain funding levels and follow the growing demands of parents and legislators is getting harder and harder. Even wealthy schools have trouble.
Some of these financial concerns are from years of mis-management and graft, but often the schools are expected to provide services, sports and classes that are beyond the capabilities of the staff.
So how do you give someone, with the same natural abilities and potential, but an environment that pushed them down, that didn't give them the basic structure they need to succeed, the ability to compete with the student that did have those resources?
U of Texas law schools went from 40 minority students to 4 after AA ended. 4 students. There's probably more behind that statistic that I'd like to know, especially the number of applicants, but that's depressing.
Affirmative action is NOT a long-term solution. It can't be. It's inherently unfair to certain groups. It is a potential short-term solution though, and it seems to have worked. The biggest problem I see with it is that people assumed it was the best, long-term solution. I don't like that. Bundle it with a viable, long-term solution, and try to phase it out in 30-40 years.
Bah - I'm done vented, time to fight some more with this blasted javascript file.
-- Ravensfire
You're generalizing a bit there. While my experience is limited, many of the individuals I know that qualify as an under-represented group (which essentially means anyone who is not a caucasian male) don't really like AA.
However, they most particularly don't like the reason for AA. cgannon made a point that I heard in several interviews - that there is a disperity in the opportunities presented to various socio-economic groups. American society traditionaly points to education as the key to social advancement - that learning present opportunities not otherwise available.
Yet there is a tremendous gap in the funding available to students, especially rural vs suburban vs urban environments. As a white male growing up in a suburban neighborhood, with friends in both rural Missouri and urban Missouri, there isn't a question that my exposure to technology was greater, and the selection of courses was signifcantly higher. I took calculus in High School - my cousin in rural Missoui could take nothing higher than pre-calc. Several of my courses had computer lab components, let alone the programming courses I was offered. My friend in the city - the school had a handful of computers, total.
I think the problem is that there is an implicit assumption in the theory of social advancement that the playing field, while not totally level, isn't tilted too badly. Right now - it's bad and getting worse. The ability of schools in non-weathly areas to maintain funding levels and follow the growing demands of parents and legislators is getting harder and harder. Even wealthy schools have trouble.
Some of these financial concerns are from years of mis-management and graft, but often the schools are expected to provide services, sports and classes that are beyond the capabilities of the staff.
So how do you give someone, with the same natural abilities and potential, but an environment that pushed them down, that didn't give them the basic structure they need to succeed, the ability to compete with the student that did have those resources?
U of Texas law schools went from 40 minority students to 4 after AA ended. 4 students. There's probably more behind that statistic that I'd like to know, especially the number of applicants, but that's depressing.
Affirmative action is NOT a long-term solution. It can't be. It's inherently unfair to certain groups. It is a potential short-term solution though, and it seems to have worked. The biggest problem I see with it is that people assumed it was the best, long-term solution. I don't like that. Bundle it with a viable, long-term solution, and try to phase it out in 30-40 years.
Bah - I'm done vented, time to fight some more with this blasted javascript file.
-- Ravensfire
thestonesfan
A Client of Ron Kuby
I don't imagine all of them like AA. I sure wouldn't.
I don't see the relevency of your arguement - AA isn't about economic disadvantages. It's about race.
I don't see the relevency of your arguement - AA isn't about economic disadvantages. It's about race.
ravensfire
Member of the Opposition
Is it?
Why was AA started?
Why was AA started?
One reason that UT Law went from 40 to 4 was that other schools of equal and greater prestige were able to keep the race-based elements of their AA policies in place while UT Law's hands were tied in this regard by a specific court case. Most minorities that were a "merit fit" for UT were an "AA fit" for more "prestigious" schools such as Harvard, Michigan, and Yale. With the court blocking access to its race-based AA pool and the prestige schools siphoning off minorities from its merit pool with their still in place race-based AA programs, it is no suprise that minority enrollment at UT Law plummeted.
I think the Supreme Court came down right in the Michigan case. Let race be a factor among many factors (and perhaps, in my opinion, a tiebreaker if two potential students have the same merit and same economic background), but do not allow race as part of a purely mathematical formula. Here's what the Michigan undergrad school formula (that was struck down) essentially did in regards to race and economic background:
20 points for being from an underrepresented minority group.
0 additional points for being a memebr of an underrepresented minority group, but also coming from an economically disadvantaged background.
0 to 20 points for applicants from an economically disadvantaged background who are not a member of an underrepresented minority group.
So the son of a black doctor or lawyer is given exactly the same degree of affirmative action as the son of a single black mother working a minimum wage job and more likely than not,more affirmative action than the son of a single white mother working a minimum wage job.
If you want to create a critical mass of diversity on campus, then do it through a critically massive examination of application files of potential AA candidates that attempts to judge the true degree of diversity that they can bring to the classroom. Don't do it with a critically massive display of disregard to the spirit of AA by applying a faulty mathematical formula.
I think the Supreme Court came down right in the Michigan case. Let race be a factor among many factors (and perhaps, in my opinion, a tiebreaker if two potential students have the same merit and same economic background), but do not allow race as part of a purely mathematical formula. Here's what the Michigan undergrad school formula (that was struck down) essentially did in regards to race and economic background:
20 points for being from an underrepresented minority group.
0 additional points for being a memebr of an underrepresented minority group, but also coming from an economically disadvantaged background.
0 to 20 points for applicants from an economically disadvantaged background who are not a member of an underrepresented minority group.
So the son of a black doctor or lawyer is given exactly the same degree of affirmative action as the son of a single black mother working a minimum wage job and more likely than not,more affirmative action than the son of a single white mother working a minimum wage job.
If you want to create a critical mass of diversity on campus, then do it through a critically massive examination of application files of potential AA candidates that attempts to judge the true degree of diversity that they can bring to the classroom. Don't do it with a critically massive display of disregard to the spirit of AA by applying a faulty mathematical formula.
Archer 007
Rebirth
Thats exactly what i read on some racists groups website. I guess bigots can be right every so often.
Archer 007
Rebirth
Doesnt that whole economic idea seem more out of place today?
onejayhawk
Afflicted with reason
These are truly rulings where both sides can claim victory. Or neither side depending on your POV.
The key quote is Justic O'Conner, "In an important qualification, must be limited in time." SD O'Conner has been the swing vote on just about everything lately. She sided with the majority on all points, the only such justice. To have her draw a line inthe sand, 25 years, is effectively the death knell of affirmaitive action as it exists. In effect, schools are on notice to phase out the practice over the next generation.
Taken as a whole, this is a crushing blow to the NAACP. In as way it could not have been worse, because the ruling states that affirmative action is a crutch, and in no sense a right. The court is saying bluntly, "You need to be able to walk on your own, because the crutch is a temporary thing.
The most respected jurist of our time, Antonin Scalia, said this to close his dissent, The Constitution proscribes government discrimination on the basis of race, and stateprovided education is no exception. I expect this to be the majority opinion fairly soon, although Justice O'Conner's dictum of 25 years will carry much weight. This era, for good or bad, is passing
As a bit of an aside, this is also bad news for abortion rights supporters, since one of the key things preventing the overturning of Roe v Wade has been a desire to not cause radical changes. If this posting of notice flies politically, a similar form of notice may come in reproductive law cases.
J
PS Here and here are the opinions.
The key quote is Justic O'Conner, "In an important qualification, must be limited in time." SD O'Conner has been the swing vote on just about everything lately. She sided with the majority on all points, the only such justice. To have her draw a line inthe sand, 25 years, is effectively the death knell of affirmaitive action as it exists. In effect, schools are on notice to phase out the practice over the next generation.
Taken as a whole, this is a crushing blow to the NAACP. In as way it could not have been worse, because the ruling states that affirmative action is a crutch, and in no sense a right. The court is saying bluntly, "You need to be able to walk on your own, because the crutch is a temporary thing.
The most respected jurist of our time, Antonin Scalia, said this to close his dissent, The Constitution proscribes government discrimination on the basis of race, and stateprovided education is no exception. I expect this to be the majority opinion fairly soon, although Justice O'Conner's dictum of 25 years will carry much weight. This era, for good or bad, is passing
As a bit of an aside, this is also bad news for abortion rights supporters, since one of the key things preventing the overturning of Roe v Wade has been a desire to not cause radical changes. If this posting of notice flies politically, a similar form of notice may come in reproductive law cases.
J
PS Here and here are the opinions.
Pontiuth Pilate
Republican Jesus!
"The most respected jurist of our time, Antonin Scalia"
Rumor is John Lennon was going to use this as a line in "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, but at the last minute he decided "as rocking horse people eat marshmallow pies" sounded slightly more plausible.
Rumor is John Lennon was going to use this as a line in "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, but at the last minute he decided "as rocking horse people eat marshmallow pies" sounded slightly more plausible.
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