next emp masters challenge?? great wall/pyramids/forge engineers use debate

[NaZdReG]

Aelf, and all who would care to participate:

we had briefly touched on the topic of spreading out GPP to keep each city pure. just to try a gambit out for myself I ran a game on warlords:

continents
medium sea level
prince
normal spd
as stalin industrius/aggressive

had the great wall up right after the 2nd city went up, hard built the pyramids (probably could have used the hammers on settlers and army and waited for the first engineer)

when the first engineer spawned I immediately dropped the great library in my 2nd city. 3rd great person was a scientist used to get an academy (waste).
dropped a forge in the capitol and ran an engineer from that point onward
4th great person was another engineer to get the hanging gardens. 5th was another engineer to get machinery giving me that and civil service almost simultaneously.

obviously they limited use of engineers and with good reason, but while expanding and gearing up for war I was able to get some really nice wonders.

part of that situation is that the great library became a competitor against the engineers. but there were a couple of times where I had to wait a few turns to research tech to get the wonder I wanted out of the engineer.

engineering based wonders include
the great wall
pyramids
hanging gardens
pentagon
3 gorges dam

yeah not many are engineer based wonders so you gotta run off the forge. but with the wall, pyramids, gardens, and engineer you get 8GEp's per turn.

this is where my choice of being russia instead of germany might have been a mistake. late game their UB (assembly plant) lets you run 4!!! engineers simultaneously. so a total of 5 engineers with the forge.

will probably let you get the pentagon and gorges without effort.. space elevator for free etc.

perhaps those of us with time not devoted to the ALC (sisuitil) or the emp challenge (aelf) shoudl play a few shadow games and give some feedback. my next game effort will be similar settings but as germany so I can see if that lategame pays off. will be sure to give some feedback and maybe some screenies here.

contribute please!! will be of use to aelf for the next emp challenge.. and sisuitil if he wants to pick up warlords already

NaZ

 

[aelf]

Wow, isn't this too soon?

I tried a strategy that is close to this when playing my last OCC. Winning OCC on Emperor is difficult for me, so I had to leverage every possible advantage I had. I played Bismark (Expansive/Industrious). Expansive helps with health, but happiness is low on Emperor, and the map generator doesn't like to give many happiness resources nearby. But I had stone, so I chopped the Pyramids early to run Representation. The +2 happiness would help me until I managed to build the Globe Theatre.

After the Pyramids was completed, I noticed that the Great Wall would only take about 12 turns to build, so I chopped that one too. I used the first GE I got to build the Great Library. But because this is OCC, I could only build it in Berlin My second GP turned out to be a GE too, thanks to the two GE wonders and, IIRC, and the forge engineer. I had no good wonders to build at this point. Angkor Wat and the religious wonders wouldn't be of much use to me. And my neighbour Korea was hostile because Wang Kon declared war on me for no reason earlier and I birbed two neighbouring civs to dogpile him. So I used the GE to lightbulb Machinery, allowing me to build macemen immediately for defense.

Fast forward, I got a GS next and used him to lighbulb Education. Winning the Liberalism race was far more important than an Academy in this game, since I had at least 3 AIs to trade with. Besides, I would be signing a permanent alliance later on, so my own scientific power wouldn't matter much. I did win the Liberalism race and managed to stay somewhat on par with the AIs in techs until the early Industrial era. Another GE popped up by luck and I used him to rush the Ironworks, which practically ensured every wonder I bothered to build after that. In the end, I signed a PA with Saladin, built the Kremlin and the 3 Gorges Dam (both the conventional way, though) and engineered (no pun intended ) a space victory.

Sorry for the long story. I just thought I'd share how a somewhat similar strategy turned out. It was very useful, but I think stone was quite pivotal. Otherwise, I would've chopped for the Pyramids and stopped there. I'd probably still build the GL with the GE from Pyramids, but subsequently getting GEs would be unlikely.

Anyway, I've taken to your earlier suggestion of playing Korea in the next game (which will probably be on Immortal). You're not interested in that anymore?

 

[NaZdReG]

Aaaah heh thanks for pointing out the korean path to me again!!! I just wanted to get this particular strategy debate kicked off early so we could actually come up with some sort of collective consensus yay or nay and to what civs it would be worth trying for.

as far as the korean path, we'll save that discussion for the game you choose to take it. I honestly watch more of your games then I play myself due to limited time constraints (darn work lol) but the $$ is always worth it heh.

anyone else want to weigh in?

NaZ

oh just wanted to add for reference, if anyone wants to see our discussion of korea here is the linky:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=187662

now the big question aelf, and I hope you have time to consider while you're working on the current game.. is it possible to get the great wall up while working on the korea strat?? once the engineers get rolling you dont need the industrious trait.

hmmm is the word there. roll the wall and the pyramids out of the capitol, run the great library and some scientists AND representation AND cottages heh just whore techs from every direction why not!!!

eventually the scientists would outstrip the engineers from the capitol.. unless you tainted it with the possibility of an artist through the epic. then the gpp's would be able to keep up with the scientists and you'd have a mix of both. but then again a 3rd city would have the oracle no??

so here we are folks. while going for religion and science whooring.. is it worth considering setting up 2-3 different gp pools.. one engineer one scientist and/or prophet pool. since shrines are good but so are scientists if they taint each other thats not really bad.

the reality is a single engineer from a forge would almost guarantee engineers in the capitol despite the epic.. and the occasional random artist isnt horrible given your conquest based nature aelf.

prophets occasionally coming out of the library city aren't terrible either.

jiggle, sisuitil, doctor.. care to weigh in?? run seperate games?? i'm going to go ahead and take a crack at the great wall with korea and see what happens

NaZ

 

[asabahi]

engineering based wonders include
the great wall
pyramids
hanging gardens
pentagon
3 gorges dam

You forgot the The Hagia Sophia.

 

[patagonia]

With the extra early GE points available in Warlords due to the Great Wall, I've found that their main use is in denying them to the AI.

If you can snag the Great Wall, and then grab the pyramids with the engineer from it (easiest to do with a Philosophical civ, since then it's only a 25 turn delay between the two), the AI won't pop any GE until midgame at the earliest when forges start to become widespread. This makes picking up wonders yourself much easier - not just because of the "free" wonders you can get by burning engineers, but also because the AI won't go building them in one turn when you've almost completed them.

As far as keeping separate pools of GPP goes, I think it's only really worth doing that if your strategy is dependent on getting a particular type of great person (or particular combination of great people). All of them have their uses throughout the game, although GS and GE are generally preferable unless going cultural. Prophet contamination isn't the end of the world either, since if you combine Ironworks and Wall Street, settled prophets give your economy and production a real boost.

Of course, the real way to maximize GP-generation is to run a pacifist SE with a philosophical leader, in which case the GE will give you a boost by providing "free" wonders to add to the GPP pool in various cities.

 

[oyzar]

On OCC i read that you should settle just about every great person you get because of reprensentation and later to help construct spaceship parts. This ofc also makes it much easier to just hardbuild the wonders.

 

[aelf]

On OCC i read that you should settle just about every great person you get because of reprensentation and later to help construct spaceship parts. This ofc also makes it much easier to just hardbuild the wonders.

Really? Why is this so? Why would you want to miss out on powerful early wonders by settling your GEs? Would you not want to lighbulb techs with your GP/GS to trade with the AIs, who will definitely surpass your one city's research ability soon enough? I agree with maybe settling GAs or GMs, but certainly not the others.

 

[NaZdReG]

Agree with aelf 100% even under representation super specialists are less of a benefit when settled to where they can pop techs or provide their other bonuses. even an 8 turn golden age is more powerful I think than the settled benefits of 2 GP's

NaZ

 

[uberfish]

You do not need to lightbulb when playing OCC. When playing for space I go for engineer wonders too, but I settle all my GPs except an academy builder. It is possible to keep up in tech just by standard vertical research and trading until at least the Industrial age, and then you can build the Internet. Not settling GPs really hurts your late game, when you need all the beakers and hammers you can get to build the spaceship in time. I win OCCs around 1950 on emperor, with PAs disabled.

 

[voek]

I exactly tried this with my current game being Stalin on a Inland Sea map. Build the Great Wall, but the Mids were build well before I got my GP AND the GP was a GS, since a speeded up the proces by hiring a GS and lost the odds. I am becoming convinced the Great Wall - GE - mids, is too much of a gamble to count on. If you want to use it for the GL, ok, but you prob. shouldn't pollute your GE generation, unless you want a early GS, not too shabby either.

Settling a GE seems like a complete waste. Just rush the Ankhor Waht and run some priest for lots of hammers, gold and GP production.

 

[aelf]

Not settling GPs really hurts your late game, when you need all the beakers and hammers you can get to build the spaceship in time. I win OCCs around 1950 on emperor, with PAs disabled.

I guess the key difference is I play with PAs enabled. Having a PA almost negates your own research ability in the late game. But I would like to know what is your strategy for winning space race on OCCs alone by about 1950 without a very good start. The best start I ever got was stone and 1 health resource in the fat cross, with wine eventually available after the 3rd or 4th border expansion. Is settling all your GPs besides GEs everything? Don't you still need almost 20 turns to research the space age techs? You can't beat the more powerful AIs at that speed.

 

[uberfish]

try this:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=185305

 

[aelf]

Thanks. You rely on Internet in late game? Interesting. I've never built it before.

 

[petey]

I like settling the Engineers in OCC. That way you can use them for production and focus on building cottages and windmills for science instead of building mines. Over the course of the game, they're much more useful that way, especially when it comes to building the spaceship parts - you need a lot of production for that while you still need to keep up the research to get the techs for the other components.

 

[asabahi]

Well, with the new patch GW is only going to give 1 GE point, so the GW to Pyramids Gambit might be a wee bit harder. Maybe for the next game play a creative or organized civ, they have new bonuses to their traits.

 

[NaZdReG]

yes unfortunately the patch makes the great wall mediocre if all you're aiming for is GE generation. frankly the oracle is probably a better build if we go with korea.. it already starts on the religious path and could sling to metal casting or code of laws. pyramids are quite unnessessary to a financial civ unless you plan on warmongering early. though running scientists with the great library under representation is not bad

we'll have to leave it to aelf to figure out which path is best though. i've played a couple of games as korea over the past few days, and waiting to strike until you have some hwachas is somewhat worth it but I learned the hard way its nessessary to have a settler or two with them to resettle cities that need to be moved as it were. still the hwachas really wreck upon ppl. still aelf will need to finish his current game and start up the discussion of the next one for this to be more relevent

NaZ

 

[aelf]

Looks like the next Challenge might have to remain on Emperor, seeing the changes to the AI in the new patch. And I thought I could finally move on to Immortal

 

[Minmaster]

Wow, isn't this too soon?

I tried a strategy that is close to this when playing my last OCC. Winning OCC on Emperor is difficult for me, so I had to leverage every possible advantage I had. I played Bismark (Expansive/Industrious). Expansive helps with health, but happiness is low on Emperor, and the map generator doesn't like to give many happiness resources nearby. But I had stone, so I chopped the Pyramids early to run Representation. The +2 happiness would help me until I managed to build the Globe Theatre.

After the Pyramids was completed, I noticed that the Great Wall would only take about 12 turns to build, so I chopped that one too. I used the first GE I got to build the Great Library. But because this is OCC, I could only build it in Berlin My second GP turned out to be a GE too, thanks to the two GE wonders and, IIRC, and the forge engineer. I had no good wonders to build at this point. Angkor Wat and the religious wonders wouldn't be of much use to me. And my neighbour Korea was hostile because Wang Kon declared war on me for no reason earlier and I birbed two neighbouring civs to dogpile him. So I used the GE to lightbulb Machinery, allowing me to build macemen immediately for defense.

Fast forward, I got a GS next and used him to lighbulb Education. Winning the Liberalism race was far more important than an Academy in this game, since I had at least 3 AIs to trade with. Besides, I would be signing a permanent alliance later on, so my own scientific power wouldn't matter much. I did win the Liberalism race and managed to stay somewhat on par with the AIs in techs until the early Industrial era. Another GE popped up by luck and I used him to rush the Ironworks, which practically ensured every wonder I bothered to build after that. In the end, I signed a PA with Saladin, built the Kremlin and the 3 Gorges Dam (both the conventional way, though) and engineered (no pun intended ) a space victory.

Sorry for the long story. I just thought I'd share how a somewhat similar strategy turned out. It was very useful, but I think stone was quite pivotal. Otherwise, I would've chopped for the Pyramids and stopped there. I'd probably still build the GL with the GE from Pyramids, but subsequently getting GEs would be unlikely.

Anyway, I've taken to your earlier suggestion of playing Korea in the next game (which will probably be on Immortal). You're not interested in that anymore?

wow OCC win on emperor? that is just incredible. props to you. ive only won OCC on monarch and that was with having everything go my way. in fact, i can only win emperor once in a while on normal settings let alone OCC. btw, didnt the AI attack you like crazy on emperor? i noticed OCC on anything above monarch gets me a gangrape by the AI. maybe you had peaceful neighbors, but still a very impressive accomplishment.

 

[aelf]

wow OCC win on emperor? that is just incredible. props to you. ive only won OCC on monarch and that was with having everything go my way. in fact, i can only win emperor once in a while on normal settings let alone OCC. btw, didnt the AI attack you like crazy on emperor? i noticed OCC on anything above monarch gets me a gangrape by the AI. maybe you had peaceful neighbors, but still a very impressive accomplishment.

Thanks, but it's not that impressive. uberfish wins OCC on Emperor without PA! He knows the secrets.

The AIs did attack me. Wang Kon attacked me twice (the first time in early medieval) and both times I bribed one/two neighbours to dogpile him until he capitulated to Brennus. Alexander declared war and landed a stack of a few rifles and several trebuchets, which I repelled with the loss of 75% of my defenders. I bribed Brennus to go to war with him. Shortly after, Louis also declared war on me and landed a bigger stack of several cavalry and a few cannons. Luckily, I was a bit more prepared this time and some of my defenders were more experienced. Again, I bribed Brennus to declare war on him. After that, Brennus continued fighting with Alex till the latter capitulated. Then Brennus/Alex declared war on Loius and Louis managed to take all the Greek cities while losing a few of his own. Shortly after, my PA Saladin and me launched our SS about 2 turns before Brennus. It was a fun and challenging game. In the end, I might have won only because of my spies!

 

[Minmaster]

Thanks, but it's not that impressive. uberfish wins OCC on Emperor without PA! He knows the secrets.

The AIs did attack me. Wang Kon attacked me twice (the first time in early medieval) and both times I bribed one/two neighbours to dogpile him until he capitulated to Brennus. Alexander declared war and landed a stack of a few rifles and several trebuchets, which I repelled with the loss of 75% of my defenders. I bribed Brennus to go to war with him. Shortly after, Louis also declared war on me and landed a bigger stack of several cavalry and a few cannons. Luckily, I was a bit more prepared this time and some of my defenders were more experienced. Again, I bribed Brennus to declare war on him. After that, Brennus continued fighting with Alex till the latter capitulated. Then Brennus/Alex declared war on Loius and Louis managed to take all the Greek cities while losing a few of his own. Shortly after, my PA Saladin and me launched our SS about 2 turns before Brennus. It was a fun and challenging game.

one thing i have a problem on OCC is the fact that i cant go on the offensive when AI declares war on me. first, i dont have much units because im building wonders all the time. that means i gotta stay inside my city, meaning the AI has a field day pillaging all my precious tile improvements. do you actually have enough units to leave the city and take down the invaders before they reach the city?