[NFP] NFP Game Modes are half-baked

[GunsGermsandSteel]

I'll preface this by saying there have been a number of good things to come out of the New Frontier Pass. Notably civs that have a more intriguing approach to the game. And I particularly like the diplomatic quarter (although that might have been a free update, I don't know...)


TLR - The new game modes are laughably (sad laugh) harness by the AI. Some of the new features just feel like cheats once you get the hang of them. Still no real historical/real world modes, which is something they promised.

Anyways, I'm here to complain about the half-baked nature of the game modes in NFP. At first they seem fun and clever but as I've played a number of games with them enabled a bunch of design issues have surffaced.

-The AI sucks with the new mechanics. The AI was bad before, now it is even more obvious. I should put some screens up, but game after game with Secret Societies there will be multiple civs who inevitably choose The Voidsingers... and have massive horde of cultists... which they DO NOT USE. It just makes the game vs the AI feel very hollow. Furthermore, the cultist units themselves are poorly classified to where you would have to declare war on someone sending cultists your way, which feels off. They look like religious units to me. I digress. They don't send them your way anyways.
AI Has no idea how to use vampire units (and I rarely see them for that matter).

Then there is the issue of how imbalanced the secret socities are. Old Gods Obelisk is great, fantastic really, to the point it makes early faith gain ridiculously easy.

Owls of Minerva is just boring really. It's just a bunch of bonuses, not really adding anything to the game.

My suggestion:
Put in some code for pete's sakes so the AI knows what to do. Tone down old gods obelisk.


Heroes and Legends.
I really loved this mode at first. And there is still a lot of good here. The heroes have very unique and wide ranging abilities. There is an opportunity cost associated with getting them early.

The problem is you can recall them. Endlessly.
Want to insta build districts non-stop? Hercules Hercules Hercules. Yes it's cool, I actually like it. I don't like that it is spammable. It feels like a cheat. Same thing with Maui and Anasasi. Plant a veritable garden of resources with Maui, while running Anasasi all over deleting AI opponent luxuries. Yeah it's fun - once. But again, it just feels like cheating. Don't get me started on combat. It's stupid. I mean really stupid. For Ancient heroes to be so combat effective in the later ages. It just feels wrong.

The other aspect of this is that the heroes do not feel special. If I called up Hercules once to insta-build 3 districts that would be an interesting choice timing wise. But the fact that I can endlessly call him up for what IMO is a relatively low faith cost means its just becomes part of a greater plan to spam districts.

My suggestion.
Heroes get called up once. That's it. No recalls.

My other suggestion:
More heroes/legends, especially in more modern times. Geronimo, Davey Crockett, Chuatecmoc (sp?), Vasily Zaitsev, etc (these are just ideas, don't harp on them too much please)


Apocalypse mode... just isn't that fun. Again, you could "cheat" with the soothsayer (another unit the AI is hopeless with) and give yourself ridiculous farm yields. For the most part is boring. Oh another mega-colossal volcano erupted somewhere. yay. For the most part you can still avoid the worst of the environmental effects... and it just doesn't feel that different from disasters turned up.

My suggestion:
Give the disasters more flare, sandstorms are now also firestorms. Droughts come with locusts. Program the AI to be able to use the soothsayer.

Dramatic Ages. I do like this mode. And it is the only one I will continue to play at times.

 

[criZp]

Firaxis figured over 90% of the players don't care if their opponents are braindead, so we will just keep getting more of this. There's no return, too many stupid people with too much disposable money is a force nobody can win against.

Moderator Action: Please be civil in discussion. This is inappropriate. leif

 

[c4c6]

There's no return, too many stupid people with too much disposable money is a force nobody can win against.

Don't forget a department fully equipped with pitchforks!

I heard recently rumors that Anton shall become reincarnated in a dark park outside of Baltimore with a brandnew Nero V2.0 software (incl. hero mode!), but probably the QA guys are standing then all day long on his cape (again!) ... so he might not be able to use his thunder and just play lyre and sing ...

 

[cain3456]

I noticed you skipped over tech shuffle. IMO this is a must have, truly invigorating the game.

 

[Kwami]

The problem is you can recall them. Endlessly.
Want to insta build districts non-stop? Hercules Hercules Hercules. Yes it's cool, I actually like it. I don't like that it is spammable. It feels like a cheat. Same thing with Maui and Anasasi. Plant a veritable garden of resources with Maui, while running Anasasi all over deleting AI opponent luxuries. Yeah it's fun - once. But again, it just feels like cheating. Don't get me started on combat. It's stupid. I mean really stupid. For Ancient heroes to be so combat effective in the later ages. It just feels wrong.

The other aspect of this is that the heroes do not feel special. If I called up Hercules once to insta-build 3 districts that would be an interesting choice timing wise. But the fact that I can endlessly call him up for what IMO is a relatively low faith cost means its just becomes part of a greater plan to spam districts.

If by "endlessly", you mean "once per era, so maybe like 6 times in an average game", and if by "relatively low faith cost", you mean "at least 1,000 faith, which is actually quite a large cost in the first few eras", then sure. Endless, cheap Hercules.

Or has this changed when I wasn't looking?

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Firaxis figured over 90% of the players don't care if their opponents are braindead, so we will just keep getting more of this. There's no return, too many stupid people with too much disposable money is a force nobody can win against.

Why can't people just accept that some people like to play civ game differently than theirs? What if they are not looking for a challenge?

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Firaxis figured over 90% of the players don't care if their opponents are braindead, so we will just keep getting more of this. There's no return, too many stupid people with too much disposable money is a force nobody can win against.

Are you gonna police how people spend their money? And how can you comment anything in a thread about game modes when you don't even own NFP yourself?
I don't trust immature people who call others stupid on the internet; otherwise I would believe all the people who left a comment on your steam profile.
https://steamcommunity.com/id/crizp

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: The topic is discussion of game modes, not each other. Please report inappropriate comments and let staff handle the issue. Handling it yourself only drags the thread off topic and may cause you to be in the infraction crosshairs. Back to topic with civility please.

 

[Siddharth Venkatesh]

If by "endlessly", you mean "once per era, so maybe like 6 times in an average game", and if by "relatively low faith cost", you mean "at least 1,000 faith, which is actually quite a large cost in the first few eras", then sure. Endless, cheap Hercules.

Or has this changed when I wasn't looking?

Is 1000 faith Hercules significantly cheaper than Moksha (I ask genuinely because Moksha is broken in my game)? Sure he doesn't cost governor promotions but by the time you can reasonably afford to spend faith on districts and not on settlers/builders, you have plenty of governor titles to spare.

 

[salty mud]

The entire NFP is one sorry joke. If the devs did their homework and surveyed their audience they'd know what people wanted from further Civ VI expansions. And it definitely wasn't meteor strikes, ancient vampires or Hercules building districts.

 

[LMT]

The best thing about these game modes is that they are...modes. You can turn them on or off as you please.

I like them, though some more than others. Personally, I don't see how Tech and Civic Shuffle and Dramatic Ages don't make the game more challenging.

I do understand how Secret Societies and Heroes & Legends can feel like cheats. Maybe they will be refined, like maybe shorter lifespans for heroes. Or you can get the hero whenever you want, but once you use a charge, you must use them all in a limited timeframe and they cannot be recalled. And I do tend to agree that the Secret Societies need a little more balance.

Apocalypse mode is probably my least favorite, but mostly because I find solar flares to be really annoying. Not sure how much this mode could be refined.

Overall, though, I feel my money was well spent. I'm glad Firaxis came up with new content for Civ VI before moving on to VII.

 

[kaspergm]

Is 1000 faith Hercules significantly cheaper than Moksha (I ask genuinely because Moksha is broken in my game)? Sure he doesn't cost governor promotions but by the time you can reasonably afford to spend faith on districts and not on settlers/builders, you have plenty of governor titles to spare.

Moksha has been broken for me forever as well (which mod is it that breaks him - is it Terra Mirrabilis?), but iirc. buying districts with faith was not super cheap, so I do believe a 1000 faith Hercules for 3 districts will be considerably cheaper than Moksha. But someone can probably fill us in on the details.

The best thing about these game modes is that they are...modes. You can turn them on or off as you please.

I see this statement a lot here, but that's a really bad argument imo. If the status at the end of the release is I basically play with them all off, then you may argue it has not made the game worse, but it certainly has not made the game better either, and in terms of giving me value for my money, it's a really bad deal.

My personal status is:
- Apocalypse mode: Never bothered.
- Secret Societies: Tried a couple of times, got bored with it because of poor balance.
- Tech shuffle: No interest for me.
- Dramatic Ages: Haven't tried yet. Some good elements, but I think I'll be stressed by the lack of normal age. Will probably try at some point.
- Heroes: Have tried a couple of times. Some fun elements, but again feels like basically putting game on steroids, so I think I'll grow tired of it before long.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

If the devs did their homework and surveyed their audience they'd know what people wanted from further Civ VI expansions. And it definitely wasn't meteor strikes, ancient vampires or Hercules building districts.

And you know this how? Remember we are the 1%, the fanatics, we are not at all typical of Civ VI players.

 

[LMT]

I see this statement a lot here, but that's a really bad argument imo. If the status at the end of the release is I basically play with them all off, then you may argue it has not made the game worse, but it certainly has not made the game better either, and in terms of giving me value for my money, it's a really bad deal.

Yes, I would agree that if you eventually play with them all off, all of the time, then NFP would be a bad deal for you. But that's not the case for everyone.

What would be interesting to find out is after the last mode is released, how long most civ players use them. Not just most civ players on civfanatics, but most civ players.

 

[salty mud]

And you know this how? Remember we are the 1%, the fanatics, we are not at all typical of Civ VI players.

And you know this how? Just because we post on a forum, we're worlds apart from the "typical" Civ VI player?

It's getting to the point now I think you take issue with my posts just on principle...

 

[GunsGermsandSteel]

I noticed you skipped over tech shuffle. IMO this is a must have, truly invigorating the game.

True. And I do have it enabled for nearly every game.

I also mentioned that I like Dramatic Ages. There are some problems with it though - since the Age bonuses are now policy cards you have even more pressure on your wildcard slots. Not to mention, if you haven't gotten to a government by the time you achieve a golden classical you'll be unable to use the golden age policies right away. There's also the issue that you can theoretically achieve non-stop golden ages (though in 3 full plays I haven't managed that).


Let me simplify this discussion a bit. While I would like to see refinements/rebalance to the existing modes lets just chalk it up to let the dirty casuals enjoy their fun. What I hope to see then is for the last two game modes to have realistic/historical theme and more balanced approach.

-Potential themes: Colonization, merchant guilds/east India company/corporations, plagues/diseases, vassals/puppets (conquer but not eliminate civs, can tie in heavily to loyalty and ages), atheism/shamanism (alternate route to bypass relgion). Just some thoughts.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

And you know this how? Just because we post on a forum, we're worlds apart from the "typical" Civ VI player?

It's getting to the point now I think you take issue with my posts just on principle...

Because not everyone who bought civ 6 posts here. If you are right CIV 6 should have negative reviews by a margin... but it really dosen't.

 

[Siddharth Venkatesh]

Moksha has been broken for me forever as well (which mod is it that breaks him - is it Terra Mirrabilis?), but iirc. buying districts with faith was not super cheap, so I do believe a 1000 faith Hercules for 3 districts will be considerably cheaper than Moksha. But someone can probably fill us in on the details.


I see this statement a lot here, but that's a really bad argument imo. If the status at the end of the release is I basically play with them all off, then you may argue it has not made the game worse, but it certainly has not made the game better either, and in terms of giving me value for my money, it's a really bad deal.

My personal status is:
- Apocalypse mode: Never bothered.
- Secret Societies: Tried a couple of times, got bored with it because of poor balance.
- Tech shuffle: No interest for me.
- Dramatic Ages: Haven't tried yet. Some good elements, but I think I'll be stressed by the lack of normal age. Will probably try at some point.
- Heroes: Have tried a couple of times. Some fun elements, but again feels like basically putting game on steroids, so I think I'll grow tired of it before long.

Moksha has always been broken for me, with or without mods. I skipped Rise and Fall when it first came out and only got the expansions with Gathering Storm and I've never gotten any districts to show up in the faith purchase options. I have no issues with Reyna's district purchasing. I really have no clue what causes this and I've just given up on that mechanism.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Moksha has always been broken for me, with or without mods. I skipped Rise and Fall when it first came out and only got the expansions with Gathering Storm and I've never gotten any districts to show up in the faith purchase options. I have no issues with Reyna's district purchasing. I really have no clue what causes this and I've just given up on that mechanism.

It must be a Mod as it works fine in a current stream I am recording without Mods.

 

[salty mud]

Because not everyone who bought civ 6 posts here. If you are right CIV 6 should have negative reviews by a margin... but it really dosen't.

Not sure what that has to do with my point that the NFP is a poor joke. If you want to go by reviews, the NFP is currently sitting at a comparitively poor 59% "mixed" score on Steam. Things get even worse if we look at features of the pack individually; Maya and Gran Columbia currently sitting at a paltry 39%. Not to mention that Civ VI is currently the lowest scoring Civilization game overall by quite a margin.