Nicolas Maduro Wins Venezuelan Presidency in Close Race

So form approves of tazering these protesters, because they were disrupting a legislative session.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2011/12/wash-d06.html
So Bamspeedy "approves" of incessantly creating absurd strawmen of my views.

Many of those still fighting the Cold War have much in common with some of those they hate. They seem to think the ends justify the means, no matter how reprehensible that may be.
 
So it's agreed that fraud happened, it's just not known if the fraud affected who would have won ( exactly how many votes were affected by the fraud). great.

Hardly. Just because some anti-Chavista blogger says so, doesn't mean there was fraud. Over 100 independent observers, none of whom saw tampering, and the fact that all of the Capriles camp monitors at the voting stations signed off on the tallies -- where is the fraud? You can't ask someone to disprove a negative -- burden of proof is on the plaintiff, not the respondent.

Besides, it bears repeating over and over again: Capriles ran as the "better Chavista," so likely the 10% vote margin he lost between the polls and the elections was the fringes worried about high crime.
 
So it's agreed that fraud happened, it's just not known if the fraud affected who would have won ( exactly how many votes were affected by the fraud). great.

I'm not in Venezuela, I don't know which sources on Venezuela I can trust. I like to think journalists like Greg Grandin and Greenwald have less of an agenda than the US government, but I could be wrong. I don't know who to truly believe, though I do have my own personal biases.

So if Capriles is trying to do something other than grandstanding, if he truly wants to convince people like me, the intl. community, the Venezuelan people that are not already his ardent supporters, he needs to present something significant.
 
Calling people "fascists" while deliberately trying to stop the proceedings by playing vuvuzelas and rolling out a banner reading "parliamentary coup" is now "peaceful protest"?

But I would agree that it still didn't merit a physical confrontation which the opposition party apparently was more than willing to escalate and may have even started. We simply don't know who threw the first punches. But from the video you provided it clearly wasn't one-sided.

So you approve of not allowing opposition senators to speak or vote on legislature? And subsequently denying their right to protest that?
You think?

And last I heard they did audit a portion of the votes and found no fraud.

Not quite. They said they would audit a portion of the votes than didn't end up doing it.

He is giving Maduro an excuse to be a nasty little tyrant rather than having his supporters/the opposition set a good example and make Maduro look even worse?

This isn't to appease you, this is about the future of Venezuela. As for Maduro, he is making a clown of himself left and right on state television, so no worries there.

It might be better phrased as what Capriles has to gain from continuing the protest unless he is willing to trash Venezuelan democracy.

Venezuelan Democracy is dead. It is currently a dictatorship by definition following what happened in the National Assembly.
 
Did the 49% hand-counted votes show a statistically different result from the official results or not? Capriles must have the full results of that count because he had witnesses on every voting station.

It the result was different then by all means demand a full count. If it was not then a full recount won't change anything unless either:
1) some bad procedure or statistically bizarre (but possible) variation makes those 49% of the votes unrepresentative of the whole;
OR
1) the process through which 49% of the votes were separated and counted under watch from witnesses had been somehow subverted in the first place despite the witnesses in place.

If the issue is mere statistics and a desire by the loser of wanting a "second chance" through the full count, though luck. That was an issue to raise about the election procedures before the election, not after.

If the issue is one of wrong or subverted counting process in the first place, evidence is the only thing that can settle this. Led those witnesses who refused to sign the original manual counts come forward and present their charges clearly. If there are any.

The smart thing to do is to never have any automated component to an election in the first place. And to make sure that every step of the process is witnesses and audited by representatives of all candidates who are able to fully understand and verify it, and sign and publish a report on it in the end. American countries have a very stupid, very dangerous, infatuation with automating elections. Hopefully messes like this one will make some people think again about it.

Within the official results from CNE, you could see a large discrepancy between the initial 98% of votes counted and the final 2% of votes. Statistically, you'd think that the final 2% of votes would resemble the other 98%, no?

There was a video I saw of it earlier on twitter, but that was some time ago and probably not something easily found again. Quick search found me this different video which argues the same thing though. It has a low view count though. :p

Anyway, you talked about Capriles having observers at the desks, but they were forced out at gun-point in many places. That was one of the things Capriles pointed at when discussing the fraud of the election.

What I am wondering is what's the story with the international observers? So far only Peru and USA have came out against Maduro, everyone else other than Ecuador, Cuba and Argentina, the three countries being given hand-outs by PSUV, have been quiet.
 
You are soooooo dramatic, TLO, and you have been relying far too much on Globovision.

Maduro basically threatened physical harm to the Peruvian ambassador on national television for comments made by the Peruvian president. Ask me again who is being dramatic?
 
So you approve of not allowing opposition senators to speak or vote on legislature? And subsequently denying their right to protest that?
So you just can't help but create absurd strawmen of my obvious views as well?

Intentionally disrupting the legislative sessions is not any sort of legitimate "right to protest". To claim otherwise is simply absurd. "So you approve" of such measures?

Not quite. They said they would audit a portion of the votes than didn't end up doing it.
But they appeared to have done just that. Not to mention that the election was closely monitored by both the opposition party as well as independent auditors. And except for the usual minor irregularities, no widespread voter fraud was found. Now was there?

Anyway, you talked about Capriles having observers at the desks, but they were forced out at gun-point in many places. That was one of the things Capriles pointed at when discussing the fraud of the election.
Then I'm sure you can provide video or some other sort of proof that this occurred, along with the statements of the independent observers who were also supposedly "forced out at gun-point in many places".

In fact, that would be all the proof which would be necessary to hold the elections again.
 
So you just can't help but create absurd strawmen of my obvious views as well?

Intentionally disrupting the legislative sessions is not any sort of legitimate "right to protest". To claim otherwise is simply absurd. "So you approve" of such measures?

Both sides are at fault in regards to what happened in the National Assembly. I think the opposition's protest was provocative and judging from what Maduro said, they probably had some role in the escalation of violence on that day.

Doesn't change the fact the government barred the opposition the right to vote or speak on legislature, locked the doors to the national assembly not allowing anyone to escape, and brought in government thugs to help beat the opposition senators.

But they appeared to have done just that. Not to mention that the election was closely monitored by both the opposition party as well as independent auditors. And except for the usual minor irregularities, no widespread voter fraud was found. Now was there?

Not according to the opposition. And as I said, there have been some issues regarding the opposition and international observers. Opposition ones were forced out at gun-point and it appears that only Cuban, Ecuadorian and Argentine observers were allowed in some places, while other international observers were moved around and directed at places where there was seemingly little fraud.

As for why the international observers haven't spoken up either for or against the electoral process, I don't know and their quietness makes me quite skeptical of what's going on.

Then I'm sure you can provide video or some other sort of proof that this occurred, along with the statements of the independent observers who were also supposedly "forced out at gun-point in many places".

In fact, that would be all the proof which would be necessary to hold the elections again.
There was videos and pictures that were circulating around in the days following the election, showing exactly that. I remember one in particular showing the birds-eye view of one observer being forced out and the national guard locking and guarding the door after him. I guess I'll have to dig for them.

It was opposition observers who were forced out, not independent observers.
 
Videos circulating is not evidence if it is not presented. The CNE is fpllowing the letter of the law. Radonski's csmp is simply fomenting illegal dissent -- and a true democracy like the BRV can and will survive it.
 
Both sides are at fault in regards to what happened in the National Assembly. I think the opposition's protest was provocative and judging from what Maduro said, they probably had some role in the escalation of violence on that day.

Doesn't change the fact the government barred the opposition the right to vote or speak on legislature, locked the doors to the national assembly not allowing anyone to escape, and brought in government thugs to help beat the opposition senators.
Regarding the part that is bolded, please provide a respectable unbiased source corroborating it. Otherwise you are just perpetuating even more partisan nonsense regarding this entire matter.

And I am under the impression that the rights of the opposition in the legislature have been curtailed to some extent for the very acts which you now claim are indeed reprehensible. But they were still clearly present.

As for why the international observers haven't spoken up either for or against the electoral process, I don't know and their quietness makes me quite skeptical of what's going on.
What it should make you "suspicious" of is the incessant whining by the losers of the election with no actual proof of enough voter fraud to affect the result of the election.

There was videos and pictures that were circulating around in the days following the election, showing exactly that. I remember one in particular showing the birds-eye view of one observer being forced out and the national guard locking and guarding the door after him. I guess I'll have to dig for them.
I guess you will.

It was opposition observers who were forced out, not independent observers.
But they were obviously there. Where is their confirmation of these incidents which couldn't possibly have gone unnoticed, as well as their statements that there was widespread voter fraud?

Videos circulating is not evidence if it is not presented. The CNE is fpllowing the letter of the law. Radonski's csmp is simply fomenting illegal dissent -- and a true democracy like the BRV can and will survive it.
This smacks of the same nonsense perpetuated after the last Iranian presidential election, which turned out to be just so much sour grapes.
 
Within the official results from CNE, you could see a large discrepancy between the initial 98% of votes counted and the final 2% of votes. Statistically, you'd think that the final 2% of votes would resemble the other 98%, no?

There was a video I saw of it earlier on twitter, but that was some time ago and probably not something easily found again. Quick search found me this different video which argues the same thing though. It has a low view count though. :p

It could as well argue that the sky is green. Meaning: it still doesn't present any evidence.

Anyway, you talked about Capriles having observers at the desks, but they were forced out at gun-point in many places. That was one of the things Capriles pointed at when discussing the fraud of the election.

Evidence?

What I am wondering is what's the story with the international observers? So far only Peru and USA have came out against Maduro, everyone else other than Ecuador, Cuba and Argentina, the three countries being given hand-outs by PSUV, have been quiet.

Even Spain, that country with a right-wing government that never liked Chavez, has come out recognizing the results of the election. That should tell you something...

Maduro basically threatened physical harm to the Peruvian ambassador on national television for comments made by the Peruvian president. Ask me again who is being dramatic?

Ca you at least supply evidence of this, if you cannot about any of the election fraud claims? I'd like to hear exactly what was said.
 
We should point out that you ask for evidence but don't post anything about Spain yourself.
 
We should point out that you ask for evidence but don't post anything about Spain yourself.

It was actually easy to check that, there's a single authoritative source for it. But ask and you shall receive, directly from the source:

OFFICIAL STATEMENT 66
Venezuela
16/04/2013

Having completed the internal constitutional and legal procedures, the Government of Spain respects the National Electoral Council's decision to declare Nicolás Maduro as President Elect of Venezuela.

The Spanish Government hopes that all political agents will act responsibly and with respect for the country's institutions within the framework of the Constitution.


Am I supposed to find any evidence there? I see only a rather predictable opinion piece repeating one side's tale of the fight in parliament (if "we were hurtz by evil Diosdado Cabello", no details on how, can be called a tale) plus the usual anti-Cuba talk.
 
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