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Nicolas Maduro Wins Venezuelan Presidency in Close Race

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by ReindeerThistle, Apr 14, 2013.

  1. ReindeerThistle

    ReindeerThistle Zimmerwald Left

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    Venezuela is building socialism in a country rife with a vocal minority of people who benefit from capitalism -- not to mention a little help from the USA. The opposition are reactionary forces, what do you expect?
     
  2. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy CheeseBob

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    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/21/w...s-in-grocery-staples.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    That is from a month ago and there was shortages of toilet paper then. And when TLO lived there a couple/few years ago there were many shortages then. Maybe not on toilet paper, but everything else. the exact dollar amount of what toilet paper is to be sold at is changed every year (as is every other product), based on whatever the government what to set it at for the price controls.

    Or if the government hasn't done a yearly raise on the price of toilet paper when inflation is 30 percent, the vendors of the TP are going to reach their 'breaking point' at various times.

    The price controls may have had a honorable motive, but there may be unintended consequences, such as vendors closing rather than being forced to lose money and food and basics being snuck out of the country where it can be sold for higher prices.
     
  3. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Then it is obviously not the result of Maduro becoming elected. Now is it?
     
  4. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy CheeseBob

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    I already said in a previous post it was too early to blame maduro.. If he continues the Chavez policies of price controls set too low then he certainly will be to blame. It's possible some actions by maduro has made the situation worse (he was president before the election), just like its possible he will get this mess sorted out and improve the situation.
     
  5. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Price controls: there are shortages, not everyone gets served as they would like.

    Free market: prices rise, not everyone can afford the stuff or buys less, not everyone gets served as they would like.

    The free market doesn't actually make shortages go away. Only "legitimizes", hides them, they don't get talked about in the media. Because, you see, it's the poor people's blame that they can't afford much of the stuff on sale in a free market...
     
  6. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy CheeseBob

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    Because there are those in the US who can't afford toilet paper, right?

    If the poor need toilet paper then give them money to buy some, you don't solve it by making toilet paper unprofitable to make or sell.
     
  7. Praise_Satan

    Praise_Satan Warlord

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    Lol socialism.
     
  8. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    And you're going to extend that newfound generosity of yours towards to poor to everything else they need? Because this is not a toilet-paper only issue. It's no accident that you picked toilet paper instead of housing, food, cars and transportation, clothing and the many other consumer goods where the "free market" deals with insufficient supply simply by making them unaffordable to a portion of the population. If you want to fix them all by giving the poor some money for each and every category you're standing for the widest scale "social security" program ever...
     
  9. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy CheeseBob

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    So Venezuela would rather spend their oil money buying toilet paper from other countries rather than letting their own citizens make a profit on making and selling their own toilet paper. I get it now.

    What happens when the oil runs out?
     
  10. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    You don't get it, you make it up. What is there to prevent a country from using income from one source to finance services from another source? That is what all states do. Replace toilet paper with any other commodity. Furthermore, what is there to prevent a country from producing subsidized goods locally to target price controls, paying for those with surpluses from other goods. That's what any business does in regards to its internal operations. And what every country does also, obviosuly.

    Your complaint (I won't even call it argument) rests on what toilet paper is usually applied to...
     
  11. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy CheeseBob

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    Sure, they don't need to produce everything themselves but they've been continually importing more and exporting less. They are even importing gasoline and then giving it away at 4 cents a gallon.
     
  12. Praise_Satan

    Praise_Satan Warlord

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    I wonder when the Venezuelan government is going to start rationing toilet paper. Lol socialism is such a joke.
     
  13. Atticus

    Atticus Deity Retired Moderator

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    Moderator Action: You're welcome to lol at socialism, but if you're going to post about that on these forums, your posts should have a bit more content and bit less trolling.
     
  14. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Find me any data source - any - that shows Venezuela's aggregate yearly imports being more than its yearly exposts, or any trend towards importing more than it exports. I know that you won't, because you cannot find any. It doesn't exist. FYI in 2011 Venezuela imported goods valued at 28 billion USD and exported goods valued at 90 billion USD. Its trade surplus is much bigger both in relative and uin absolue terms, than it was in 2000.

    Venezuela exports more than twice more goods than it imports, in value, every year. If they are doing anything wrong it is being too careful. Venezuela's oil does contribute with the greatest portion of those exposts. Venezuela's optios about using that revenue are either to stuff it in some fund managed by the usual big intergnational banks, or to devolve it to its people by means of subsidies and social spending, or to invest it - which is usually code to say "spend it lavishly so that a few favoured friends of the governments get hugely profitable contracts".

    Venezuela has been, what an heresy, devolving a lot of that money from the country's exports of natural resources to its population in a way that gets it spread among the poor - controlling prices and provided public services to those, a majority of the population, that had been all but ignored by the state during the 1980s.
    The traditionally priveleged classes that used to get most of the oil money are pissed that "their" money is going to provide a better living standard to the poorer, larger portion of the population? No surprise there.
     
  15. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy CheeseBob

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    I meant their import/export without oil. Diversity.

    http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/fa1bef56-97d6-11de-8d3d-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2TgOb5rLw

    I know the motives of price controls, and the motive is fine, it's the implementation I disagree with. If a farmer can't make a profit he is going to stop growing food. If a vendor loses money selling a good, he won't sell it (or sell as little as he is required to=hoarding). If a landlord can't make a profit from rent, he won't build anymore apartment buildings.

    The farmer doesn't care if he makes money from the consumer or gets a check from the government (subsidies), he just wants to earn money.

    Price controls to prevent price gouging I can agree with, price controls to make people lose money is terrible.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_controls

    The poor get welfare checks. If they still cant afford basic goods then that tells me their welfare checks are insufficient and should be increased. Rather than giving them bigger checks, venezuela feels they need to spend their money buying goods from other countries, letting someone else other than their own citizens make a profit.
     

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