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Nicolas Maduro Wins Venezuelan Presidency in Close Race

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by ReindeerThistle, Apr 14, 2013.

  1. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    The Oliver Stone movies (Salvador, South of the Border) are just a simple way of describing a particular worldview, that of a manicheistic struggle of good vs evil going on in Latin America between the "peasants" and the "elite". Anyone minimally familiar with Latin America knows this is laughable, but it is quite a common worldview among some people, like you. This doesn't necessarily imply you took this cretinous view from OS, though the likelihood is significant.

    As for calling me "son"... I don't know your age, but I'll bet big bucks right now that I'm older than you.
     
  2. ace99

    ace99 Deity

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    Man these Mexicans are really upset about this election. I guess that's why they're not good at democracy.
     
  3. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    The use of the word son has more to do with the maturity of your argument than your age.

    I'm not nearly as much of an ideologue as you are giving me credit for. Maybe some others you disagree with in this thread are, but not me.

    My issue is when the accusation of electoral fraud, that the boogeyman X group is always the cause of problems, etc. is thrown around without a shred of proof to back it up. That's why I asked (and to be sure, it wasn't snark or sarcasm) on the last page for the evidence of the fraud itself. I genuinely want to see the actual charges and evidence to back it up, and in how many pages of this thread very little that is substantial has been posted (credit to TLO and Ace for giving us some awhile back). I'm also skeptical of ex-pat communities with a near-unanimity of opinion against person Y--maybe the vocal expat community is right in this case, but we just had another experience where a group of expats convinced our government that we would be greeted as liberators, and we all saw how true that was.
     
  4. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Yes, sorry about not being able to contribute more to this thread, I have some exams and projects for various classes that I must complete first. My time on this forum alongside my replies to people in this thread for the time being is mostly an afterthought during my daily schedule.

    Given that it is looking like this political crisis is going to extend over the course of months, I am sure at some point in the near future I will be able to contribute more so. To those who are skeptical of Capriles and think he is an usurper, all I will say right now that it is not the case and in fact the roles are reversed. Capriles is doing everything diplomatically and by the book of what you would expect a leader of a civilized democratically developed western state would do in his situation and is advocating for pacifism at every turn. That is my word on it as it's probably not in my personal best interest to spend time finding articles in English to prove it. Maduro on the other hand is behaving like an authoritarian fascist (who he ironically has regularly called Capriles these last few days), banning elected officials from the National Assembly, threatening opposition leaders, terrorizing civilians with organized violence and trying desperately to suppress the media, free speech and Venezuelan's rights and freedoms.

    Btw Reindeer and Luiz, it's Radonski not Radonsky. The letter Y makes his name Russian rather than Polish. :vomit:
    :)p)
     
  5. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    It's all good, we all have obligations that supersede a game forum. But I did want to say that I appreciate your contribution earlier, it was one of the few substantial posts besides the more snippish fighting that has dominated the thread.
     
  6. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    About those percentages and other claims by the Caprilles side, here are some replies from the Maduro side:

    This is the same old strategy used in the early 1970s in Chile to provide a justification for Pinochet's military coup. Create and escalate social conflicts across the country. Except that in Venezuela there doesn't seem to be anyone in the military contemplating treason, those were kicked out after 2002. But in Chile the military commanders who had pledged to obey the elected government and remain uninvolved in politics were removed as part of that strategy of building up tension: the Venezuelans are forewarned...

    Maduro is a populist. And Caprilles is a scumbag willing to try to plunge is country into civil war just for the sake of seizing the power that he again failed to win through the elections.
     
  7. Cheezy the Wiz

    Cheezy the Wiz Socialist In A Hurry

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    If it's not women, he's needs to get on America's level, since Kerry saw the need to diss Maduro's win.
     
  8. ReindeerThistle

    ReindeerThistle Zimmerwald Left

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    FYI, my group has been in contact with Venezuelans in then US with family in Venezuela as well as officials we know in the Consulates, and this is what I heard:
    -- as accorded by law, the CNE did a partial (54% of the returns) recount and Maduro still ended up with a slim majority. That there is no legal basis for a full recount.
    -- Capriles has not presented any evidence to the CNE of even one case of election fraud. I personally do not know what's in those binders.
    -- Capriles won the Miranda state governorship in Dec. 2012 by 51.82% over Elias Jaua (PSUV) 47.82% -- 45,111 votes -- and nobody protested that outcome.
    -- Capriles just bought an apartment in New York
    -- Capriles has been agitating people to protest, in spite of his public admonition for his supporters to stay home
    -- In at least two instances free medical clinics were fire-bombed by Capriles supporers, and at least one of the state-run supermarkets was also fire-bombed by Capriles supporters.
    -- one of the CGs told us that the government IS standing firm, and that they think that this is another coup attempt.

    That's the story I'm getting.

    Sorry, Antilogic, if my straw-manning has put you off. My earlier posts dealt with data, and for that I was attacked, so I made myself a target to draw fire.

    I would like to know if there are bases for Capriles' claims, too. I have seen none, AND though I am in favor of the current government of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, I would appreciate any data.
     
  9. Azale

    Azale Deity

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    Capriles' side claims the CNE is stuffed with Chavez/Maduro stooges though right?
     
  10. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    How long does it for election observers to complete their reports? I did some googling last night but I didn't find anything substantial. All I found was a CBC interview with a Canadian PM who served as an observer saying he heard reports of some election machine glitches (nothing about whether they were resolved or not) and a military presence at voting stations-but he didn't see any of it. If there was serious observable voting fraud, shouldn't the news media be picking it up and running with it?
     
  11. ReindeerThistle

    ReindeerThistle Zimmerwald Left

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    Exactly, and as innonimatu pointed out, that is the kind of claim you bring up before the election.

    Right, that's the thing. Our contacts in the BRV government say that Capriles has not stated one example of voter fraud, nor brought anything formal to the CNE. He is, in fact, advocating for an illegal thing. See my earlier post.
     
  12. ace99

    ace99 Deity

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    Hah. In America the opposing candidate had binders full of women. :smug:
     
  13. BirraImperial

    BirraImperial Pura Vida!

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    Well, apparently they are auditing the remaining 46% of the votes, since according to the CNE 54 percent has already been audited. Capriles believes that the problems spotted will come up from those votes, which I find unlikely.

    Link

    I find quite disgusting that Maduro keeps on referring to the opposition as "bourgeoisie fascists" while his government is trying to buy and shut down the last remaining opposition channel (Globovision) and refers to anyone who voted for Capriles as "traitors".
     
  14. ReindeerThistle

    ReindeerThistle Zimmerwald Left

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    While I have no position on a recount, whatever Venezuelans decide is all right by me. I object to the US government calling for a recount -- especially after our own 2000 election being decided by the Supreme Court.

    However, the speeches from Maduro I heard is that Maduro was calling Capriles supporters who were instigating violence "traitors.". In one speech he asked where were the Capriles supporters who believe in democracy. He was addressing, also, what appears to be a coup attempt and calling those people "fascists."
     
  15. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Yup, they are recounting the same computerized votes the opposition (unofficially) believes were faked in Sunday's election.

    So basically no progress at all.

    @Reindeer, that is selective listening of his speeches if that is what you got from it. The guy basically has called Capriles and his supporters fascists and bourgeoisie in every other speech.
     
  16. Bugfatty300

    Bugfatty300 Buddha Squirrel

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    It's always a good sign when Presidente starts going on about traitors and coups attempt before he's even sworn in.
     
  17. ReindeerThistle

    ReindeerThistle Zimmerwald Left

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    @TheLastOne36: please link the speeches -- are we talking about the campaihn or the post-election coup attempts.

    @Bugfatty: Maduro was the interim President, so, he was president before he was sworn in -- and given Capriles' history (attack on the Cuban Embassy during the 2002 coup) and given the documented history of US funding of Venezuelan opposition, it's not a stretch to call people who you think want to illegally remove the government "traitors.". Even Chavez did time for his coup attempt in 1992.

    There is currently no documented evidence of election fraud.
     
  18. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    That documented evidence does not exist does not mean election fraud did not occur. The institutions usually responsible for that are likely filled with pro-Maduro supporters willing to fudge the numbers. I mean, if I was going to do vote rigging the first thing I would do is neuter the organization responsible for detecting vote rigging.
     
  19. Ironsided

    Ironsided Flower of happiness

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    The terrible cut-axis 3D bar chart graph posted on national TV is not helping Maduros credibility that's for sure. I may be somewhat biased here as I do data visualisations for a living but that blatant and pathetic attempt at distorting facts turns me right off like nothing else. It's almost worse than the BS on Fox News. Anyone should spot it a mile away but still; WHY? Why do that? It's just stupid and demeaning to his supporters and I'm guess I'm one of them. I guess it's going to be f*ck you and congratulations from me.
     
  20. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    That type of rhetoric, propaganda and message was especially prevalent in Chavez' regime and it looks like Maduro's as well.

    Fox News would be deemed apolitical in comparison to some of the state owned medias in Venezuela. :lol:

    @Reindeer, if we are playing this game, I want to see evidence for Capriles "attacking" the Cuban embassy as well. And just so you know, Maduro was part of the group of Chavistas who were opposed to Chavez' "Bolivarian moderatism" and wished to overthrow him and established authoritarian rule. Chavez later forgave him obviously, but if we are going to be citing devils from the past, I think that way outweighs the Cuban embassy thing.
     

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