1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Night of the Werewolves XXVII: Night of Blood

Discussion in 'Mafia/NOTW' started by oyzar, Jul 29, 2009.

  1. PaulusIII

    PaulusIII Unholy Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,621
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    You can counter actions one minute before the deadline. :D

    I think a lot of these proposals would rely on a 'code of honour' among players. You can't stop someone from voting/accusing at the last minute, but you can discourage it. There have been wolves in the past who removed inactive players.
     
  2. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    4,415
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    But the reason that so few people vote nowadays is that the innocents know that somewhere out there, there's a prophet or two gathering a cabal and trying to take out suspicious targets. When everyone adds inertia to random bandwagons, that hurts the prophets' ability to steer bandwagons away from confirmed innocents, and that hurts the innocent team in the long run. Right now, the game is balanced in favor of simply not lynching at all until a prophet finds a guilty result.

    Well, when I say "restricting," I don't mean getting rid of it entirely. Maybe PMs could be passed between players through the mod only at the morning and evening posts, or something, and free conversation among wolf teams would of course remain intact. Grilling each other over MSN can be fun and suspenseful, but it just leads to a mass roleclaim that gives a huge advantage to the innocents unless there are plenty of "vanilla" innocents for the bad guys to hide among, and adding tons of vanilla roles would make the game less interesting in itself.

    Maybe there should be a threshold for when private chat becomes unrestricted - like when half the village is dead, it becomes deserted enough that people can find an isolated corner to speak in private with no fear of eavesdroppers. That way, the tense elements of IM conversations can still be preserved.

    I've been thinking of holding a "traditional" mafia-type game of Night of the Werewolves with a slightly smaller player set of players and a ruleset designed specifically to force in-thread investigative work instead of prophet cabals.

    Edit: Ninja'd by Catharsis and Paulus.
     
  3. Catharsis

    Catharsis catch u on the flip scythe

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2007
    Messages:
    5,087
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Clinging onto underside of forum
    Yeah but if we look at it that way, we end up with a Zeno-style paradox by which the GM can't close the voting until an infinite number of posts have been made. And if I were that GM, I wouldn't want to count all those vote changes. :p
     
  4. mythmonster2

    mythmonster2 BEC NOIR! RUN!

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2005
    Messages:
    2,873
    Location:
    Houston TX, Yeeeehaw!
    Why not have the GM make an invisible deadline a few minutes before the actual deadline that changes every day and that only the GM knows, so as to discourage last-minute voting out of fear that it won't count?
     
  5. PaulusIII

    PaulusIII Unholy Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,621
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    This is why it's a paradox, is it not? ;)

    I'd discourage to take player actions that late. It's hard for the GM who might already have written an update for a different result, and it's hard to counteract such actions as a player. It's hard to stop this without relying on honour among players, and there will always be players that don't mind fighting dirty. :p
     
  6. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    4,415
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Firstly, you have to make sure that everyone is going into the game with full knowledge that they shouldn't be talking to other players in private. From there, it's the honor system all the way. I can't think of a single player here who I'd expect to consciously break a rule like that.

    Well, ideally, this game would be really really explicit about saying "Don't sign up if you don't intend to post substantial content multiple times per day." On top of that, yes, kills for the crime of inactivity would probably be suitable, though I wouldn't tie it directly to voting. Players who post fluff with either meaningless votes or no votes at all would have to be policed by their fellow players - no way to get around this one without impossible-to-make-impartial GM arbitration.

    Here's how I've seen this dealt with: Days last 72 or so hours, with extensions available upon request. However, as soon as a player has a majority of the vote against him, he's lynched and the day ends. If the day's time span is exhausted when no one has a majority of the vote, then the day ends without a lynch. This means that there's no last-minute quicklynches, since you need a majority to agree with the lynch in the first place, and it also forces everyone to take a stance, since if no one votes, the wolves get to exclusively choose who lives and who dies.

    This forum is really like the Galapagos Islands in the way its mafia games have developed. Most of the players come from here on the forum, with no previous experience with mafia games, and that includes those pioneers that hosted the first few and set the tone for the rest. It's a case of independent evolution. That's not a bad thing. The mainstream mafia communities I've visited recently have a lot of tendencies that I wouldn't want to import here in the first place. But, now that I've seen how others do it, I wonder if we can make a more perfect synthesis of the styles. I may want to host another game, sometime soon.
     
  7. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    Messages:
    7,697
    Location:
    NY
    Great minds think alike? The same idea had occurred to me. I'm obviously one of the more active IM-ers in the community, so I benefit fully from all the positive aspects of unrestricted communication. But I thought maybe going to the extreme opposite of the traditional end for a few games (maybe as minis?) might prove useful in some ways (and fun, of course. :) ) The players would absolutely have to know what they're getting into, though.
     
  8. Frozen In Ice

    Frozen In Ice Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Messages:
    1,536
    Has last minute voting even been that bad in these Notw games? I don't really think I have seen that much of it.

    Also, about people waiting for the Prophet Cabals to come in and show them the way; What if there were no prophets? That would solve the issue right there. If you made it well known to everyone it would probably get people voting again.

    EDIT: Almost forgot to say: Thank you Oyzar for hosting this NotW!
     
  9. Catharsis

    Catharsis catch u on the flip scythe

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2007
    Messages:
    5,087
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Clinging onto underside of forum
    The sort of system used in the regular internet mafia game, like that, is not easily abused but commits the (IMO) even worse crime of being boring. Like how they do it on MafiaScum - regimented, effective, but so, so boring. :dunno:
     
  10. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    4,415
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    That's one possible solution, but how many roles can you make that don't function as prophets in one way or another? Watering down the game to just include a bunch of cookie-cutter innocents doesn't seem like a proper solution to me. I think that cutting off the lines of private communication that allow prophet cabals to form is a better solution.

    The reason that MafiaScum games are boring is that they're so formulaic. There's little room for individual strategy or innovation. "Skill" just comes down to how well you can appear to play like the ideal townie that's been formulated and agreed upon. There definitely need to be mechanics in the game, like motivations and unconventional roles, that shake that sort of thing up a little.

    More to the point, I do see how requiring over half the players to explicitly support a vote before it goes through kind of reduces the potential for edge-of-your-seat, unresolved conflict, but I think it's better than encouraging rampant inactivity. Though, it's also possible that just cutting off private lines of communication would be enough to keep the players talking and voting in public.

    Edit: And of course there's also the fact that if the only private communication is between wolves, then the only way a last-minute quicklynch could be orchestrated would be by wolves, so they'd be unlikely to try that tactic.
     
  11. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    6,923
    Location:
    Norway
    I did suggest something like this earlier. It wasn't much of a problem in my game, but in the S&F for example it certainly was a factor...

    Having 3 strikes or your out (for people not voting) seems like a good idea to me...
     
  12. Sepuku

    Sepuku Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2006
    Messages:
    350
    Location:
    Kent,WA
    Well I jsut tried for the last 20 mins to write up an AAR but my attention span is like that of a goldfish and I can't bring myself to do it! :twitch:

    However, I will say that I messed up big time and hope that my mistake won't keep any future GMs from considering me as a wolf! :blush:

    Pretty much I got my PM, jumped to the thought process "they're my friends and this is like the previous NotW and are wolf supporters" and send out the PM that ended with me being verbally bashed by oyzar, and becoming the innocent bloodhound. Morgan had revealed himself to me as the curer but seemed to stay out of everything so it was mainly me and Pinman that worked together. He came up with the thought that the Vampire Leader would either have a specific item or choose not to reveal an ability so I would be given a list of people that were suspected/unconfirmed and iti was my job to do whatever I could to find out either their item or ability "as the voice of the curer" and report all findings back to Pinman. Later, Pinman brought TFA into our little circle after claiming to be the curer himself and due to previous engagements with TFA I choose to stay out of any conversations I could with him and just leave him to Pinman. However this lead to me getting kinda left out of the group and I started to work with others on the side (Catharsis and Paulus) who were convinced of my innocent for one reason or another. Catharsis revealed his ability to me after "scanning" me through a post and I brought this stright to Pinman who decided that it was a good ability but didn't trust Catharsis enough to bring him into the group.
    Not much was accomplished here however (between me and anybody else besides Pinman).

    So basically I lost my awesome wolfness, but gathered info on almost all others in the game and helped the innocent prophet cabal help pull it off! :)
    Hopefully that'll help wipe the stupidness off my record....:blush:

    Besides my little summery, if you have any questions, feel free to ask! :D
     
  13. PaulusIII

    PaulusIII Unholy Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,621
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    The reason why I turned around on day 3 was because I noted that conclusive evidence of your guilt was still not there, Sepuku. Either the various prophets had not been paying attention to the thread for the last few days, or you were indeed innocent.

    I must say at the time we started talking I wasn't fully convinced of your innocence but I thought I might've had a better chance of finding one of the bad guys by voting to lynch Methos. He had made two attempts on an innocent's life after all, and succeeded at one.
     
  14. Frozen In Ice

    Frozen In Ice Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Messages:
    1,536
    We shall have to see how cookie-cutter my innocents are then.;)
     
  15. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    4,415
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    But of course; theory only goes so far on its own. :D
     
  16. Sepuku

    Sepuku Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2006
    Messages:
    350
    Location:
    Kent,WA
    :lol:

    I had actually started to believe that there were no traditional prophets this game and just people that could detect specific races like Kulko being a Vampire hunter.

    I still find it very funny that the thing that is believed least in this game is the truth. I only lied to Pinman and only twice. The rest of the game I only spoke the truth and was believed very little :lol:

    (Well besides the identity of the curer, that was kept secret but I made no attempt to lie about me knowing who the real curer was. Even when Pinman was claiming the title, I only told Sprig that I wasn't allowed to tell him ;))
     
  17. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    6,923
    Location:
    Norway
    The "true" prophet was in the game to balance a bit more against the vampires and werewolves (it was also the only one who could detect demons), the innocent demons and morgans book (and bananalee's ring) were in the game to strengthen the demon team.

    I am unsure how bananalee/thomas/chand were cookie cutter innocents... All of these were better off on a bad guy side (and ofc there was izipo).
     
  18. BananaLee

    BananaLee Fruity Penguin

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2004
    Messages:
    3,796
    Location:
    Auckland, New Zealand
    I know exactly how you feel.

    Though to be fair, apparently I was killed because my ability would help the bad guys. Which sort of left me in a pretty rubbish state, i.e. kindling for the fire.
     
  19. Seon

    Seon Not An Evil Liar

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    8,047
    Location:
    Not Lying through my teeth
    I know how you feel too. :p.
     
  20. Krill

    Krill Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    3,332
    Location:
    Stoke-on-Trent, England
    I'm just suprised I didn't get lynched whilst staying inactive...
     

Share This Page