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NiGHTS: General Discussion

Discussion in 'Civilization NiGHTS' started by markusbeutel, Nov 22, 2010.

  1. Tayran

    Tayran Chieftain

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    Great, looking forward to it! In addition to the goat Im sacrificing a whole bull to the honor of Civ NiGHTS.
     
  2. ComradeKristov

    ComradeKristov Chieftain

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    There is a glaring concern I have with Civ V. Once a civilization becomes the dominant civ and starts conquering smaller civs there is no mechanism to stop this. What I mean is if you conquer too many city states they band together to fight you. The same should be true for regular civs. Instead of having it where once you are big nobody wants to go to war against you, there should be a coalition mechanic to make it so that everyone will band against the main civ, in the lead, before they overshadow every other civ combined. Idk how you would implement this but it is boring once you get to a certain point and there is no other rival to match you.
     
  3. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

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    The Warmonger diplomacy hit seems to be the main device used to currently stop runaway Civ's but it's more of a nuisance rather than a deterrent at the moment.

    The Tech Tree in v9 will limit runaways to an extent as it's far more diverse, with numerous paths to take. Some Civ's might take a path that favors Naval Units while other's might take more of a Land Military route. The problem with the vanilla Tech Tree is that everything sort of culminates, sort of like a Tech Tree on rails. You can initially differentiate your choices, but everything ends up coming back together - and by the end, everyone's researched the exact same techs - so generally the runaways, with their pop/science lead, are further along on this straight line of military might.
     
  4. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

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    Alright - everything's still going according to schedule for the 14th. Here's what's currently being worked on.

    1. Testing the new Happiness system.
    • -15 per City
    • -5 per Military Unit
    • +1 per Citizen
    • +10 per Luxury
    • +10 per Natural Wonder
    • + from Buildings/Policies/Governments

    The AI's currently adapts well to the new changes with no extreme positive or negative happiness results. A stable (-5) hit on all Military Units also seems to be working out well - as there is less micro required when upgrading units. Limiting the value of Citizen happiness also puts more of an emphasis on luxuries and trading, which is currently lacking in v8.9.

    I've kept the mechanic of citizens producing happiness, (as opposed to unhappiness) in place, because Civ V tends to already hit you over the head with too many negative modifiers over the course of a game.

    2. Tweaking AI Diplomacy.
    Currently, most Civ Leaders tend to play out not all that differently from one another. This is because of the vast amount of flavors that each Civ has which, when combined together, tend to muddy the water.

    Civ V actually attempted something new with Civ V in that, on higher difficulty levels, the amount of tech/policy/building options for the AI is limited to 2 or 3 instead of the 10 options it takes into account on lower levels. This way, Firaxis attempted to focus the AI on techs/buildings/policies that they deemed to be the most desirable/strategic. I won't go into how this just doesn't work when you factor in any sort of modded content...

    Basically, I'm hoping Leaders/Civs in v9 play out how you expect them to play out, (with some slight randomization from turn to turn), so that Ghandi won't be guaranteed to nuke you every game and backstabbing in general won't be the main starting point of wars.

    3. Cultural Revolutions
    Something old, something new - this hasn't appeared in any versions of NiGHTS yet and I haven't talked about it as I wasn't sure if I could get it to work out how I intended, but it's an interesting new mechanic that will affect everything from buildings to policies/governments. It will be in v9 - and I'll post more in the days leading up to the release.

    4. Balance Balance Balance
    There's around the same number of Techs in v9 as there were in BTS, and getting the right tech costs/placement is going to be the hardest thing to balance properly and is taking up a good portion of my time. Much feedback will be needed here upon release...

    5. Artwork
    Temporary icons will be in place for most new buildings/units in the game until OrsonM piecemeal's them in over the first few updates over the next month or two. He's currently working on new artwork for the revamped Government/Policy screen, and from what I've seen so far, you won't be disappointed. Plans are also in place for custom artwork for era screens, the Tech Tree, etc.
     
  5. ComradeKristov

    ComradeKristov Chieftain

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    What patch do i need to play the new version?
     
  6. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

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    It'll require the latest patch as that's what I'm coding it with. It might be playable with previous versions but there will probably be bugs. I've attempted to make v9 a little bit future-patch-proof by creating/duplicating a lot of things that are already in the game. That way once a patch comes and changes them, it won't affect my duplicates and I won't have to go and rebalance as many of the changes.
     
  7. Mayjori

    Mayjori Chieftain

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    I thought I read somewhere you were moving away from the tech pyramid, am I mistaken?
     
  8. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

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    Nope - you're correct. A fully-fledged traditional Tech Tree is coming in V9 - and it's not a slight reworking of the vanilla Civ 5 tree, it's completely new. The closest thing to compare it to would probably be the Tech Tree from Civ 4. There's an early screenshot of it a page back, post #1356.

    EDIT: How do people like the current AI expansion rate in vanilla Civ V? It's a lot slower compared to the expansion rate in IV and III at the moment - and from my own experience, it's been frustrating at times seeing the AI sit at 3-4 cities when there's still plenty of land available. (They're coded this way if they are going for a Culture win and it happens a lot if they focus on Wonders). Increasing the rate of expansion would make the game more challenging, but I've been tweaking numbers and finally have a combination in place where I can fairly accurately determine the rate at which they expand. Is 5-6 Cities too much after 100 turns? More? Less? I'll usually get anywhere from around 5-8 up in that timeframe, but I'm not sure what sort of play-style people have become accustomed to in V.
     
  9. thio

    thio Chieftain

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    I never build that many cities in Vanilla myself, happiness is usually at 0 at about 3 cities. You could have about 5 or 6 at turn 100 if you wanted, but your citizens would be very unhappy about it in my experience. Not to talk about the culture issue..
    (I am playing at difficulties 4-6)

    Aside from that, i think the expansion rate in vanilla Civ since the last patch for the AI is about right when it comes to number of cities. But i sometimes wonder "why the hell would you build a city here *raze*".

    edit: When i play NiGHTS i might have more cities, because happiness (or the equivalent) is usually not an issue
     
  10. Balerune

    Balerune Chieftain

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    I haven't played in a bit as I was waiting for your next update but I recently went back and as I remembered on Immortal, Arabia, sand maps with scarce resources a lot depends on the map and the other civs placements. If they seem to expand slow I can't really expand any faster; if they have a good placement they expand faster but balance wise on its kind of okay. A few updates back had them expanding like crazy and I was glad you had toned it down. I suppose you could always kick it up slightly if you needed to.
     
  11. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

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    Happiness will be more of an issue - at least for the early-mid expansion part of v9. I've been playing my latest test build for awhile now and find that 4-6 cities is usually what I end up with after around 100 turns. The AI, depending on their traits and flavors, has anywhere from 3-8 after 100 turns. They do expand faster in the early portion of the game - but you can limit their expansion by cutting them off to some extent.

    They won/t expand like crazy, but probably 20-30% faster than they currently do - at which point they taper off their expansion after around 100-125 turns, depending on the map size and game speed/difficulty. There's going to be a lot of different ways to tackle expansion in v9 - mainly due to the revamped tech tree, and the return of some Civ IV early era buildings like granaries that store food. Policies/Governments/Revolutions will also change things up quite a bit from the current live version.

    I've finished my testing up until around the renaissance and everything is smooth sailing so far - I'm attempting to balance tech costs at the moment so you don't enter the era's earlier than you're supposed to be able to. The new tech tree does allow for some beelining, but you'll probably end up falling behind if you neglect some of the earlier techs on a regular basis.

    One thing that's very evident so far is that wars have a definite era-feel to them in that out of place units aren't appearing as often as they do in vanilla or in v8.9. I've attempted to space out the tech tree so that you get a good chunk of time to play around with each of the individual units before they become obsoleted by more advanced units.
     
  12. joparson

    joparson Chieftain

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    i cant get this working :( all it does is black screen with a million errors
     
  13. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

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    Hmm - is your game up to date for the latest patch? Also try deleting your cache folder for Civ, delete the contents of the ModUserData folder, and then verify you Civ game files through steam. Also, disable other mods and see if that helps out.

    If not, I'll be releasing a major update on the 14th.
     
  14. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

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    So new DLC and a potential patch have been announced. Korea will be included in the mod for the release on the 14th. I don't see many people shelling out $4.99 for 3 Wonders, so I'll be including modded versions of them into the game.

    As far as a patch goes - they haven't even released patch-notes yet, so I think it's probably at least around 2-3 weeks off and it shouldn't affect the mod's release. That being said, once it comes out it will take a few days to come out with a fix.
     
  15. Tayran

    Tayran Chieftain

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    You should add on the first page that the mod will not work with pirated copies ;)
     
  16. ComradeKristov

    ComradeKristov Chieftain

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    Hey, are you going to update the front page when the new version comes out? ;)
     
  17. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

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    For sure. :)
     
  18. warden68

    warden68 Chieftain

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    The only way to truly keep a civ on one path is to make the technology choices have added value for researching a particular technology before, and decreased value for researching it after certain technologies are completed. otherwise you may start on one path but go back and pick up ones you missed and you still end up at the same point. This may be complex to program but if there was a bonus to bee line for a tech say 5 or 6 specific techs in a row. at the cost of losing out on some other bee line bonus. There would truly be tech paths. Economy Bee Line, Military Bee Line, Science Bee Line, Culture Bee Line, Production Bee Line etc etc I would say 2-3 of each type spread through the eras.
     
  19. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

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    There's currently around 3-4 main paths available at any point throughout the eras, with minor paths branching off of those. I agree that there need to be incentives to keep the focus from constantly backfilling your route, (even though this is the best option at times). This has been done to some extent by having certain techs grant bonuses to the first Civ's that discover them in the form of Great People and Free Techs. Each of the main paths feature some sort of alternate military component as well. This is required as the AI simply needs a helping hand here. (I'm sure that part of the reason why the vanilla Tech Tree is setup the way it is, is so the AI can avoid making completely illogical choices, and in the end, will have taken pretty much the same Tech path as you have for added gameplay balance).

    There's also probably around 25ish new Wonders added to the game, (including the new DLC, only not the actual DLC - just the same Wonders with custom artwork/abilities), some of which grant free buildings/units that probably won't have been discovered yet and will be quite powerful to whomever manages to grab them first. (Civ 5 failed here a bit in my opinion, as there is not a lot of incentive to choose one path over another. Civ 4 had techs that unlocked religions, civics, and freebies - and the fact that Civ 5 has none of these probably adds to it's general simplistic feel).

    There are also multiple either/or prerequisites for Techs, so you can bypass certain paths if you want to focus on others. Of the roughly 90+ Techs in the mod, only around 60 will be needed to get to Future Tech, and which 60 you decide to research will vary from game to game depending on your prerequisite choices. Overall there's a lot more replayability and options to consider. Throw in Cultural Revolutions and Building Synergies (starting at the Renaissance - more on these later), and there should be limitless options to take, as I've tried to make Buildings themselves feel more epic as you progress down the tree - so that even though Pottery might be super cheap to research at a certain point, it's buildings/abilities just wont compare to that of later Technologies, especially when you factor in maintenance costs.

    I've currently finished initial balance testing through to the late Renaissance and era's have so far been lining up with their appropriate time frames for the most part, (AI Civ's generally get to the Classical Era early, but I'll probably leave it like that to keep things moving along).
     
  20. Chile

    Chile Chieftain

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    just one quick question: did you thought about adding a tech diffusion instance to keep lesser nations from falling behind even further? (I mean: technologies getting less and less expansive, the more other nations already researched them...)

    on another note: i can't wait until august 14th! Is there a short, more precise preview of the new technology-tree, new buildings etc.?

    anyway... thanks for your fantastic work...
     

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